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Victor Wooton Ain't So Great


Lowender
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[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1381679190' post='2242189']
S'funny init. We can all disappear up our own arseholes by saying 'it's subjective, it's just an opinion' but what do we learn from this? Only that everything subjective has value to someone. However, I don't buy that sh*t, because if it is true, then total crap has value. [/quote]

But if it's subjective, who decides that whatever it is is "Total Crap"? This is the problem, innit?
I've heard music that I've sincerely thought is some of the worst I've ever heard but other people rave about.
Like it or not, everything subjective DOES have value to someone, however terrible or lacking in substance it may seem to you or I.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1381679190' post='2242189']
Great art does not come from nothing, it comes from study, education, philosophy, attitude, history, imagination, perception, vision ..
[/quote]

...Or a labrador or a chimpanzee with a paintbrush up it's arse let loose on a canvas that experts & academics will decide is the work of a genius.

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1381679190' post='2242189']
If your music tutor told you your technical execution or your composition needed working on, would you tell them it's all subjective? That your string rattles and missed notes are subjective? [/quote]

If I was working with a tutor & he said my technical execution needed working on then I'd probably listen to him.
If he told me my composition needed working on, and I was perfectly happy with what I was composing, then I would probably ignore him as his thoughts on my compositions would be coloured by his own likes & dislikes.

(You'll probably disagree with all this as we obviously have fundamentally different mindsets when it comes to music).

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[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1381686404' post='2242328']
But if it's subjective, who decides that whatever it is is "Total Crap"? This is the problem, innit?
I've heard music that I've sincerely thought is some of the worst I've ever heard but other people rave about.
Like it or not, everything subjective DOES have value to someone, however terrible or lacking in substance it may seem to you or I.



...Or a labrador or a chimpanzee with a paintbrush up it's arse let loose on a canvas that experts & academics will decide is the work of a genius.



If I was working with a tutor & he said my technical execution needed working on then I'd probably listen to him.
If he told me my composition needed working on, and I was perfectly happy with what I was composing, then I would probably ignore him as his thoughts on my compositions would be coloured by his own likes & dislikes.

(You'll probably disagree with all this as we obviously have fundamentally different mindsets when it comes to music).
[/quote]

Great post.

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[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1381686404' post='2242328']
...Or a labrador or a chimpanzee with a paintbrush up it's arse let loose on a canvas that experts & academics will decide is the work of a genius.
[/quote]
Only if the labrador or chimpanzee can validate its concept!

Edited by Lord Sausage
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Here's my take on it - Yeah Vic can do the pyrotechnics; but he's one damn fine groove player underneath it all. I studied with him this year at Music Camp in Nashville and the depth of knowledge this guy has is incredible. And so humble. Just a lovely, lovely guy. One night he got up with his brothers and totally nailed Superstitious like I never heard it - and 99% of what he did was just holding the groove. What you see on youtube is the 1% of the time he goes nuts to wow the crowd. Just look at this video - and compare how funky he is in the 1st 2mins with the slaptastic notefest at around 5mins. But the important thing is - he is ALWAYS holding the groove. It's always there. It's IN him. He IS the groove. Obviously I am biased - but don't write this guy off as some guy who taps and slaps.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61wuIu8AqUQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61wuIu8AqUQ[/url]

and personally - I think the guy at the start of this tread is dull, unmusical and totally stiff. Where's the groove? ;-)

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[quote name='OutSpoon' timestamp='1381690170' post='2242430']
and personally - I think the guy at the start of this tread is dull, unmusical and totally stiff. Where's the groove? ;-)
[/quote]

You are obviously not familiar with the music of ELP: it does many things, but "groove" is definitely not one of them.... :)

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[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381689541' post='2242419']
He's validating himself. Does that give it more merit ? [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMIBSIBXRFE[/media]
[/quote]I wasn't talking about merit! I was talking about art and whether you like it or not, whether it's good art or sh*t art. If it validates it's concept then it's art. If the dog or monkey validates it arse painting then it's arse art.

Check out La monte Young and his work. It doesn't even matter if you disagree. Which i do with a lot of art!

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[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1381686404' post='2242328']
If I was working with a tutor & he said my technical execution needed working on then I'd probably listen to him.
If he told me my composition needed working on, and I was perfectly happy with what I was composing, then I would probably ignore him as his thoughts on my compositions would be coloured by his own likes & dislikes.
[/quote]


In case, I'd guess both tutors have their reasons - reasons they would (should?) be able to verbalise.

If my playing tutor says my technique needs working on, he'll also tell me what aspects of it as well as how I should work on them.

The composition tutor would do the same, explaining what choices I've made and how they will work on the audience.
As a simple example, finishing the song with a IV - I is not very rock 'n' roll, but could fit perfectly in old style church music. So if I use a IV - I in a rock song, the tutor could call this a weak change, not meaning it is bad, but meaning it has a weak type of character - call it soft if you want.
I could still keep it as it is, and might have good reasons for it (rational or musically emotional), but at least I'd be slightly more in the know than the minute before.


This hooks in on the eternal debate about how much of a composition is subject to analysis and criticism, and how much of it is beyond that realm. I've stated before here on BC that many people will be surprised about how much of a composition in fact is quantifiable, analyseable and the subject to reasoned evaluation.

Don't take me wrong: I don't like analysis. Knowing the inner workings of a great composition reduces my joy over it. That dislike however, does not mean that analysis is not a tool. My composition teacher would have to use it as a tool to even start commenting on my choices.

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[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1381693231' post='2242509']
Don't take me wrong: I don't like analysis. Knowing the inner workings of a great composition reduces my joy over it. That dislike however, does not mean that analysis is not a tool. My composition teacher would have to use it as a tool to even start commenting on my choices.
[/quote]
It's the other way for me. It increases my joy!

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[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1381694733' post='2242540']
It's the other way for me. It increases my joy!
[/quote]

+1

When I started learning theory I found that my appreciation of a lot of music (even jazz which I'd always regarded as a closed shop to me) increased.

Steve

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[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1381694733' post='2242540']
It's the other way for me. It increases my joy!
[/quote]

Yeah. Trying to be slightly less longwinded than I tend to be, I in fact worded it wrongly.
It reduces my joy when I loved the composition to begin with. It increases my joy when I disliked the composition.

BTW, I'm not talking about general knowledge of theory.
I'm talking about minute analysis of one composition - analysis that would involve writing out the whole composition by ear, then analysing it in its minute details, and writing down a reflection of that analysis.
The immense amount of time used on a composition this way, and later "hearing" not my joy but my remembrance of the analysis... that is what ruined it for me.

General knowledge of theory did augment my general appreciation for the work of a composer and for certain works, but appreciation is not the same as deep emotional experiences when hearing certain music.
I prefer that my ears just hear how great a piece is, rather than that an analysis tells me it is great.

Edited by BassTractor
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[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1381699870' post='2242679']
Yeah. Trying to be slightly less longwinded than I tend to be, I in fact worded it wrongly.
It reduces my joy when I loved the composition to begin with. It increases my joy when I disliked the composition.

BTW, I'm not talking about general knowledge of theory.
I'm talking about minute analysis of one composition - analysis that would involve writing out the whole composition by ear, then analysing it in its minute details, and writing down a reflection of that analysis.
The immense amount of time used on a composition this way, and later "hearing" not my joy but my remembrance of the analysis... that is what ruined it for me.

General knowledge of theory did augment my general appreciation for the work of a composer and for certain works, but appreciation is not the same as deep emotional experiences when hearing certain music.
I prefer that my ears just hear how great a piece is, rather than that an analysis tells me it is great.
[/quote]
Totally agree with the appreciation is not the same as the emotional experience. It's just I'm a bit of a nerd musically and i value the understanding on a intellectual level equally but totally different to the emotional experience.

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