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Victor Wooton Ain't So Great

Lowender

By Lowender,
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Lowender Enthusiast

Lowender

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[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1381560160' post='2240599']
This is essentially the problem I had with the clip.

My other main thought was "does this bring anything new, or improve upon, the original piece of music?" and for me personally the answer is a definite "NO". "Take a Pebble" for instance, is (IMO) a beautiful song with some lovely piano work by Emerson, which in this clip has just been reduced to a horrible clanky rattly bass solo with none of the feeling, expression or harmonic content of the original.

If you want stand on stage with your cock out then good luck to you, but please don't beat a really nice piece of music to death with it while you're up there.
[/quote]

That's a valid point -- in regard to the artistic value. Then again, you can say that about 90% of all remakes. Rarely are they as good as the original, it's just a different take. But I wouldn't regard that as a viable "remake" -- more of a demonstration of skill. I think the billiards example is a good one. Or people who do trick athletic moves that wouldn't necessarily work in an actual athletic event.

Sure, I don't think I'd want to hear more than one or two tunes performed in that way for personal entertainment purposes. But to say it's just rubbish or the the guy can't play or it's unmusical -- that's just absurd.

Even in my OP, I said that Victor was great, he's just not my thing. And when it cam to what he does, I felt the bloke in the vid surpassed Victor at his own game in some ways. Sorry for the confusion.

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BassTractor Grand Master

BassTractor

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[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381587956' post='2241049']
But to say it's just rubbish or the the guy can't play or it's unmusical -- that's just absurd.
[/quote]

No, it is not absurd.
In case it's an opinon that you do not share.

I'm getting the suspicion that the term "a musical performance" simply is understood by you in a different way than it's understood by some others here.
In case: many people, myself included, understand it to be a performance that manages to convey something about the composition that is deeper than just the notes. This conveying is normally achieved by choices in micro-timing, tone length, tone volume and sound.


The performance in question hardly contains these chosen elements - and certainly no micro-timing. The timing is not governed by the player's musical choices, but by the fingers' lack of ability to reach the frets and string in time. Thus, this is an example of a non-musical performance in that sense. In the unlikely case that the timing in this performance is the player's choice, then he simply is not a very musically gifted person - or rather: he then is virtually music deaf.


If you, after this explanation, still maintain that this performance is musical in that sense, then the sad news is that you are not a very musically gifted person, which is quite OK, mind, but it should in case teach you to not attack people on here (like you did with xilddx) for their inability to hear what you hear.
In case it's soooo very much the other way round, and I am indeed sorry to feel forced to write this. No joy here. Just a combination of sadness and the will to not allow you to bully us with your unintelligent and uninformed, sweeping statements.
Sadly, this thread is very much not the first time you take exactly the same role: of someone who will do anything to not allow other people to provide some correction on your ill-advised "opinions".

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oggiesnr Enthusiast

oggiesnr

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As regard to the performance in the OP. I found myself wincing every time the strings squeaked as he moved position and every time the note or chord I knew was coming arrived a fraction too late. I'm afraid it summed up for me just what is wrong with so many bass solos, nice ideas (sometimes) shame about the execution.

It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Mr P had kept a beat going on the kick drum, would it actually have pulled the performance back into some semblance of time?

The thing I love about the DB piece I posted is that it is awesome technique coupled with musicality and structure, not just disjointed bits of technique.

Steve

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Lowender Enthusiast

Lowender

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[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1381603616' post='2241339']
No, it is not absurd.
In case it's an opinon that you do not share.

I'm getting the suspicion that the term "a musical performance" simply is understood by you in a different way than it's understood by some others here.
In case: many people, myself included, understand it to be a performance that manages to convey something about the composition that is deeper than just the notes. This conveying is normally achieved by choices in micro-timing, tone length, tone volume and sound.


The performance in question hardly contains these chosen elements - and certainly no micro-timing. The timing is not governed by the player's musical choices, but by the fingers' lack of ability to reach the frets and string in time. Thus, this is an example of a non-musical performance in that sense. In the unlikely case that the timing in this performance is the player's choice, then he simply is not a very musically gifted person - or rather: he then is virtually music deaf.


If you, after this explanation, still maintain that this performance is musical in that sense, then the sad news is that you are not a very musically gifted person, which is quite OK, mind, but it should in case teach you to not attack people on here (like you did with xilddx) for their inability to hear what you hear.
In case it's soooo very much the other way round, and I am indeed sorry to feel forced to write this. No joy here. Just a combination of sadness and the will to not allow you to bully us with your unintelligent and uninformed, sweeping statements.
Sadly, this thread is very much not the first time you take exactly the same role: of someone who will do anything to not allow other people to provide some correction on your ill-advised "opinions".
[/quote]

You're probably right.


But that's just YOUR opinion. : )

Tell you what, since you're familiar with the piece and the players execution was so void of musicality, record 16 bars of it yourself and let everyone hear how it REALLY should be done.

I'll look forward to that -- as I'm sure everyone else will as well.

Edited by Lowender
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Ziphoblat Explorer

Ziphoblat

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[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381618698' post='2241580']
You're probably right.


But that's just YOUR opinion. : )

Tell you what, since you're familiar with the piece and the players execution was so void of musicality, record 16 bars of it yourself and let everyone hear how it REALLY should be done.

I'll look forward to that -- as I'm sure everyone else will as well.
[/quote]

And I'm sure next time anybody reads anything by a critic they will assume it invalid until the critic can prove his or her ability to achieve something of the same level. :mellow:

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Lowender Enthusiast

Lowender

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[quote name='Ziphoblat' timestamp='1381631009' post='2241662']
And I'm sure next time anybody reads anything by a critic they will assume it invalid until the critic can prove his or her ability to achieve something of the same level. :mellow:
[/quote]

Not analogous. A critic evaluates. That's his job and you can take that for what it's worth. I assume this gentleman is a musician and is claiming the musician in question is inferior. And doing so imperiously. If one makes that claim, I think they should be able to back it up. I said in a previous post I could copy Victors part in that song. And I didn't say it was crap.

Bass Tractor is pulling a pure puss move -- attempting to bully me by accusing me of being a bully -- when all I did was state an opinion and never...NEVER did I attack anyone here. Bass Tractor however feels entitled to call me names. It's lame. It's weak. And I'm not buying it. I think he needs to take a deep look at himself and try to understand what his issues might be that makes him so insecure. At any rate, I'm offering him the chance to back up his big words. So far...nothing.

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itsmedunc Veteran

itsmedunc

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Somebody may have mentioned him here but Lanar Brantley (Lady Ga Ga) is something else. He does his own band too with not so big gigs. I don't do 'really good bass players' (as good its a matter of taste) but this guy is something else. Even on low volume he sounds like an army... Not really my bag but he (to me) is the most outstanding player I have ever heard...

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Lowender Enthusiast

Lowender

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[quote name='itsmedunc' timestamp='1381634029' post='2241667']
Somebody may have mentioned him here but Lanar Brantley (Lady Ga Ga) is something else. He does his own band too with not so big gigs. I don't do 'really good bass players' (as good its a matter of taste) but this guy is something else. Even on low volume he sounds like an army... Not really my bag but he (to me) is the most outstanding player I have ever heard...
[/quote]

He may not be flashy but he's a solid pro with a killer groove.

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lowdown Grand Master

lowdown

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[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381618698' post='2241580']
record 16 bars of it yourself and let everyone hear how it REALLY should be done.
[/quote]

All that will happen here is, that it will turn into a "what DAW did you use" "You should have used Reaper"
And the whole thread will be moved down stairs to the recording section - Skol is hiring at the moment.

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Lord Sausage Mentor

Lord Sausage

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[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381632705' post='2241666']
Bass Tractor is pulling a pure puss move -- attempting to bully me by accusing me of being a bully --
[/quote]
Ouch!..the bully card!...it's just like Big Brother this!

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381618698' post='2241580']
Tell you what, since you're familiar with the piece and the players execution was so void of musicality, record 16 bars of it yourself and let everyone hear how it REALLY should be done.

I'll look forward to that -- as I'm sure everyone else will as well.
[/quote]
How old are you?......14!

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maldy Enthusiast

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I have to admit when I first watched the OP video I wasn't that impressed and switched it off half way through. I think this is partly due to the direct comparison to Victor Wooten, who I think is absolutely amazing. I'm so used to his performances being generally flawless and seemingly effortless, that the OP video didn't compare. That's just my opinion and honest first reaction.

I've been following this thread and there has been a lot of interesting comments. So with an open mind I've watched the original video again. However, I tried to watch it fresh and not stand it up against VW. In this light I can appreciate that what he is doing does involve a lot of skill. It is not fully to my taste and not something that makes me personally go wow. However (I don't know the original song btw) I suppose it is impressive to some and some may be amazed that he has translated this song to bass. So fair dues there. Also this is a live recording and the sound captured doesn't sound wonderful. But such are live recording sometimes. That's not necessarily the bass players fault.

I prefer VW. He does stuff I'll never be able to do and that impresses me. I also like listening to his solo pieces and flectones work. That floats my boat! I'm sure there is, or will be someone who impresses me more than VW one day, but that chappy in the OP doesn't do it for me. But that's not a bad thing, just a reflection of what I personally like :-)

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Skol303 Experienced

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Let's try to keep the opinions here focused on musicianship rather than each other, eh?

I used to be a music critic. True story. And I couldn't have come close to playing any of the music I commented on. That didn't stop me from having an opinion on it as a listener. But it also meant that my opinion was confined to just that - the perspective of a listener, not of a musician who could improve on what I was hearing.

One person's meat is another's poison - and never moreso when discussing music and other arts. We all know that. So let's allow a little room for differences of opinion.

Here endeth the sermon.

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Lowender Enthusiast

Lowender

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[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1381650898' post='2241699']
Ouch!..the bully card!...it's just like Big Brother this!


How old are you?......14!
[/quote]

Funny you should say that. I criticized something recently and a member wanted to hear MY music -- which of course is a no win proposition since taste in music is subjective. This is diffirent. Bass Tractor claimed that the performance showed a lack of musicianship so simply performing the same piece more precisely is a valid request. Sorry you were confused by all that.

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Lowender Enthusiast

Lowender

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[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1381662875' post='2241887']
Let's try to keep the opinions here focused on musicianship rather than each other, eh?

I used to be a music critic. True story. And I couldn't have come close to playing any of the music I commented on. That didn't stop me from having an opinion on it as a listener. But it also meant that my opinion was confined to just that - the perspective of a listener, not of a musician who could improve on what I was hearing.

One person's meat is another's poison - and never moreso when discussing music and other arts. We all know that. So let's allow a little room for differences of opinion.

Here endeth the sermon.
[/quote]

Absolutely. That's what I've been trying to get across and getting attacked for it. Thank you for putting it so well.

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BassTractor Grand Master

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At 12.58 AM, Lowender posted this:

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381618698' post='2241580']
You're probably right.
[/quote]



At 01:49 AM, Lowender changed this into:


[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381618698' post='2241580']
You're probably right.


But that's just YOUR opinion. : )

Tell you what, since you're familiar with the piece and the players execution was so void of musicality, record 16 bars of it yourself and let everyone hear how it REALLY should be done.

I'll look forward to that -- as I'm sure everyone else will as well.
[/quote]


At 04:51 (edited 04:52 AM), Lowender followed up with:


[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381632705' post='2241666']
I'm offering him the chance to back up his big words. So far...nothing.
[/quote]


This is really all the data we need to have.
Our brains can do the rest of the legwork...

However, just to humour Lowender just slightly:

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381632705' post='2241666']
I assume this gentleman is a musician and is claiming the musician in question is inferior. And doing so imperiously. If one makes that claim, I think they should be able to back it up. I said in a previous post I could copy Victors part in that song. And I didn't say it was crap.

Bass Tractor is pulling a pure puss move -- attempting to bully me by accusing me of being a bully -- when all I did was state an opinion and never...NEVER did I attack anyone here. Bass Tractor however feels entitled to call me names. It's lame. It's weak. And I'm not buying it. I think he needs to take a deep look at himself and try to understand what his issues might be that makes him so insecure. At any rate, I'm offering him the chance to back up his big words. So far...nothing.
[/quote]

As written before, initially it would be far from me to criticise that performance. I understand and appreciate the context as well as the attempt. I understand the technical requirements to the player.
Had I been in the audience, I would have been smiling from ear to ear, and would applaud this with warmth ("warmth" should be in the dictionary, btw, just like "coldth" and "calmth").
However, the clip was used as an example of a type of greatness that would put VW in the shadow.
Now, while I do not specifically appreciate VW, or know his work for that matter, the greatness claim was followed by a claim about this performance's musicality.

This is where I disagreed, first politely and calmly, and avoiding a discussion of Lowender's way of behaving on an open forum.
Then stuff happened, and I felt the need to up it a notch, still trying to avoid a discussion on Lowender, but it was getting very hard at that point, as Lowender virtually pushes his opponents into certain areas.
Then more stuff happened, and I felt the bullying (specifically the claim that xilddx lacks Lowender's exquisite capabilities in the ears department) needed to be met.


OK. Now for part 2.
I do not think my insecurity is the issue here. Not that I do not have insecurities, but I'm always quite open and simplistic about them. I may be lame and weak and all kinds of other ugly things, but all of that would not change the way Lowender tries to rule this thread.

As to me being a musician, for reference and clarity purposes, I told about my musical background in my second post in this thread. Yes, I was once a musician, at a semi-international level and within classical and new classical music. Yes, I did teach in music college. I never claim that I am right because of that background, as I'm far too intelligent to say such a stupid thing, but I am sometimes telling people this so they are aware where my texts may stem from.

As a bassist, I'm just a noob who can't manage to play something like "Take a Pebble" or other ELP related stuff. This inability however does not guarantee that I am deaf.

You know what? It's now 15:40 PM (yes, I know), and ...
so far ... nothing!


[quote name='Skol303' timestamp='1381662875' post='2241887']
Let's try to keep the opinions here focused on musicianship rather than each other, eh?

[...] let's allow a little room for differences of opinion.
[/quote]

Looking at the whole thread an how it was developing, I disagree, but I will respect your wish and will try to follow that lead.
To do that, I could also edit my previous posts, but since that would put others' reaction in a strange light, I think it's best if the posts are left alone.

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Lord Sausage Mentor

Lord Sausage

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[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1381671379' post='2242009']
Funny you should say that. I criticized something recently and a member wanted to hear MY music -- which of course is a no win proposition since taste in music is subjective. This is diffirent. Bass Tractor claimed that the performance showed a lack of musicianship so simply performing the same piece more precisely is a valid request. Sorry you were confused by all that.
[/quote]I wasn't confused at all. I think your pattern of arguing is. You're request for him to prove himself, i feel, then saying so far nothing was childish. Tell you what why don't we just get our cocks out and wave them at each other. We can measure afterwards if you like!

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