skidder652003 Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Following on from this topic whereby a rather expensive speaker died on me after 11 months of apparent over -excursion and is therefore not under warranty.. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217597-speaker-dies-on-me-under-12-months-any-rights/page__fromsearch__1"]http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217597-speaker-dies-on-me-under-12-months-any-rights/page__fromsearch__1[/url] I have been politely informed that this particular lightweight speaker is not in fact designed to be used with a bass amp, so please be warned!! [color=#000000][font=Calibri][size=4] [font="Times New Roman"]Further to your communication with Michael, I would like to offer the following diagnosis of your loudspeaker driver's failure. I have attached photographs illustrating the particular symptoms of your driver's failure - unfortunately, the characteristics here are rather clear-cut. The impact damage to the rear end of the voice coil is quite evident, along with the heat discolouration to the voice coil windings. Creasing to the outer edge of the cone is also visible around the entire of its circumference serves to reinforce overexcursion as the only credible source of driver failure in this instance. It is worth noting that in their application guidelines for the Kappalite 3015, Eminence state that this driver is “Recommended for vented professional audio enclosures for full-range or as mids.”. The driver is not recommended for low frequency use, or for bass guitar applications, and using it as such is using the driver for a purpose other than intended. Whilst the Kappalite 3015 is capable of reproducing frequencies as low as 40Hz, Bottom E on a bass guitar in standard tuning is a touch over 41Hz (41.323), already dangerously close to the stated lower limit for the driver, and even at moderate power levels capable of pushing the driver to significant levels of excursion. A semitone down from this – very easily achieved when playing live – is more than adequate to take the speaker outside of this. Drop D tuning will take things down to under 37Hz, open C on a 5-string is a little under 31Hz. Put simply, this is intended as – and described and sold as – a mid-range/full-range driver, and is unsuitable for use in the application you have chosen. As you have fitted this driver to an existing enclosure, it should be borne in mind that this enclosure will have been designed around a different driver, with a different suspension, and different excursion characteristics. Port tuning of a bass reflex enclosure (as many 15” bass guitar cabinets tend to be) has a massive impact on the driver itself, and as a result driver selection is something which has to be given careful consideration and calculation beforehand (there are many online resources to help in this matter), precisely to avoid driver failures of this nature. Your assertion that the SWR700 has never been driven past 65% of its capacity is somewhat of a moot point. Whilst I would quite happily concur that you may well not have had the gain/master controls on the amp turned up fully – or even past 65% - this actually has only a limited bearing on the actual output voltage from the amplifier (which will determine the Wattage delivered to the driver). Two-thirds of the rotation of a gain pot will not equate to two-thirds of maximum gain – i.e., setting your level controls to this will not by any means affirm that, for example, a 450W amplifier is delivering (even approximately) 300W into its load. Additionally, the actual output witnessed by the driver is entirely dependent on the level of the input signal, and the use of offboard equipment such as effects pedals (or use of active pickups) will vary this input signal level enormously. Incidentally, sub-bass is broadly defined and accepted as frequencies below 60Hz (some definitions of sub-bass start significantly higher than this) – the bottom two strings of a four-string bass guitar in standard tuning fall into this category; avoiding running sub-bass through the enclosure would involve not using the bottom string below the sixth fret, or the third string in the open or 1st fret positions – which I would hazard is probably not a practical option.[/font][/size][/font][/color] [font="Times New Roman"][color=#000000][size=4]In light of the above information, unfortunately the failure of the driver is in this instance not a warranty issue - nor is it an issue regarding a manufacturing defect, but regrettably of the item being used for a purpose other than intended. Accordingly, we are unable to offer a refund or replacement for this item. Kind regards, Jon Harriman Blue Aran Limited[/size][/color][/font] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 I should add perhaps that they state its not suitable for chucking in any old cab without probably doing some research first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sausage Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Boo! Poor customer service! In my mind as an ex employee of a huge capatalist bastard company. This caps sales and for the price of one refunded speaker they are potentially losing future sales. Idiots! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Wow - just as well Alex is no longer using them in his Barefaced range eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) [quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1380569291' post='2227301'] Wow - just as well Alex is no longer using them in his Barefaced range eh? [size=4][/quote][/size] [size=4]There's [i]nothing [/i]wrong with using Eminence drivers for bass guitar.[/size] [size=4]Bill Fitzmaurice recommends Eminence drivers as a premium upgrade for the J12 and that's good enough for me![/size] [size=4]Edited.[/size] Edited October 4, 2013 by discreet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomBass Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 sh*t. Best I offload my Compact before anyone else sees this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcro Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 They can argue a lot of things, but they may have you by the short & curlies! Presumably your faulty unit is new this year. Last years' Kappalite LF model had an Fs of 37Hz. the latest model is listed with an Fs of 44Hz. I think the 2013 Kappalite is a revised model and is indeed described as they say, for full-range or mids, but for MOST (not all) bass applications it would be OK. Adding an octaver pedal may put some stress on it if you were really turning up the wick AND if you had installed it in a mismatched enclosure. That last bit is questionable because those speakers have a wide range of acceptable volume for the enclosure. In the case of the current Kappalite it's between 51 and 144 litres. However, towards the top end of that scale the power handling is reduced to below 360 watts. If 400+ watts is fed in, then the speaker will exceed "xmax" (between 50 - 60Hz) and could [u]with sustained use[/u], possibly cause some damage. There are so many variables it's impossible to prove you're in the right. Unfortunately I think the other stuff they mention about gain settings and volume is true. Balcro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1380568914' post='2227290'] [color=#000000][font=Calibri][size=4][font=Times New Roman]It is worth noting that in their application guidelines for the Kappalite 3015, Eminence state that this driver is “Recommended for vented professional audio enclosures for full-range or as mids.”. The driver is not recommended for low frequency use, or for bass guitar applications, and using it as such is using the driver for a purpose other than intended. Whilst the Kappalite 3015 is capable of reproducing frequencies as low as 40Hz, Bottom E on a bass guitar in standard tuning is a touch over 41Hz (41.323), already dangerously close to the stated lower limit for the driver, and even at moderate power levels capable of pushing the driver to significant levels of excursion. A semitone down from this – very easily achieved when playing live – is more than adequate to take the speaker outside of this. Drop D tuning will take things down to under 37Hz, open C on a 5-string is a little under 31Hz. Put simply, this is intended as – and described and sold as – a mid-range/full-range driver, and is unsuitable for use in the application you have chosen.[/font][/size][/font][/color] [/quote] I just checked the Eminence website and the recommended speaker is the Basslite. I'm now thoroughly confused as this has a stated frequency range from 52Hz, so if they are saying that the reason your speaker failed was because you went too low how are their bass speakers meant to cope? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 It might be worth asking the mods to move this to the Amps and Cabs section, as some of the people who actually know about this kind of stuff only seem to check in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='Musky' timestamp='1380612158' post='2227678'] It might be worth asking the mods to move this to the Amps and Cabs section, as some of the people who actually know about this kind of stuff only seem to check in there. [/quote] Done :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Regardless of whether or not Jon Harriman's letter actually makes sense or answers the question, I'd just like to say that it is beautifully written and represents very elegant use of English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1380569182' post='2227298'] Boo! Poor customer service! In my mind as an ex employee of a huge capatalist bastard company. This caps sales and for the price of one refunded speaker they are potentially losing future sales. Idiots! [/quote] I don't think so. The fact that the voice coil has been hitting the buffers surely points to it being pushed too hard, and a significant factor is the cab in which it's been installed - the OP's signature suggests he just put a Kappalite in old Ashdown and Warwick enclosures. I don't think Compact owners need worry (is it the exact same driver?) as the cab is specifically designed around the driver. Also I won't be worrying because of the 65Hz roll-of built into TC heads! It would be quite good to have some words of wisdom from Mr Claber here... Edited October 1, 2013 by JapanAxe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1380615537' post='2227745'] It would be quite good to have some words of wisdom from Mr Claber here... [/quote] Yes. And Bill Fitzmaurice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman20 Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Hmm...how odd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 All Eminence drivers recommend high passing (where depends on enclosure). This letter is a really long way of saying 'if it sounds bad, turn down'. Be interesting to see if you got the same when toasting a Basslite with much less power since it handles less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 The driver in question is excellent for bass guitar. The damage is a clear case of both excursion and thermal overpowering. Most cheap bass cabs are tuned too high which means they'll unload on low note fundamentals. Having your volume control at 65% does not mean you're not using full power - you could easily hit full power with all your gain controls at 30% if you have a fairly hot bass and pluck hard. It clearly isn't a case for a warranty claim but Blue Aran's reasoning is incorrect. We have hundreds of 3015 in use in Compacts and Super Fifteens and none have ever failed - we've had the odd manufacturing related warranty return (misaligned cone, dustcap unglueing, etc) but no-one has ever blown one. Ironically we have far fewer 3015LFs out there (in Big Ones and Dubsters) but we've had two blown (both thermal failure with ~1000W amps). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Just to clarify, this failure mode suggests the user has been pushing too much power in below the tuning frequency, which is easily done with a powerful SWR amp and cabs that are tuned too high (I've seen Ashdown cabs tuned at 60Hz+). Any power going in a fair way below the tuning frequency will result in both huge voice coil heating for minimal sound output and huge excursion from the cone acting like it's working in free air. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1380620924' post='2227851'] Just to clarify, this failure mode suggests the user has been pushing too much power in below the tuning frequency, which is easily done with a powerful SWR amp and cabs that are tuned too high (I've seen Ashdown cabs tuned at 60Hz+). Any power going in a fair way below the tuning frequency will result in both huge voice coil heating for minimal sound output and huge excursion from the cone acting like it's working in free air. [/quote] @skidder652003 - in what cab did this driver die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomBass Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1380573089' post='2227407'] sh*t. Best I offload my Compact before anyone else sees this.... [/quote] Thankfully I was able to 'appropriate' a 15" unit from the boot of the neighbour's son's Saxo. Its bright blue and rated at 1 Megawatt according to the label on the 10gram Ferrite magnet. Best of all, it's 8 Ohm so I can run two of them (when he replaces the one now missing from his car, that is). Slotted straight into my Compact, and goes down to at least, oh, say 60 HZ. In fact, that's the only frequency it will do. Thank god I was able to rectify this embarrasing situation. Back to work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasted Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1380568914' post='2227290']It is worth noting that in their application guidelines for the Kappalite 3015, Eminence state that this driver is “Recommended for vented professional audio enclosures for full-range or as mids.”. The driver is not recommended for low frequency use, or for bass guitar applications, and using it as such is using the driver for a purpose other than intended.[/quote] [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1380620797' post='2227845']The driver in question is excellent for bass guitar.[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charic Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1380568914' post='2227290'] [color=#000000][font=Calibri][font=Times New Roman]open C on a 5-string is a little under 31Hz[/font][/font][/color] [/quote] ..and they were doing so well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1380622683' post='2227879'] @skidder652003 - in what cab did this driver die? [/quote] This one [url="http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/warwick-115-pro-400w-speaker-cabinet"]http://www.musiciansfriend.com/amplifiers-effects/warwick-115-pro-400w-speaker-cabinet[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1380620797' post='2227845'] The driver in question is excellent for bass guitar. The damage is a clear case of both excursion and thermal overpowering. . [/quote]+1. As is the case with any and all drivers it must be loaded into a cab that is compatible with its specs. If one is to push it to maximum output the amp must at the very least be appropriately high passed, if not limited to the driver's safe operating voltage swing. It must have sounded really bad for quite some time to have sustained the damage that it did. Distortion is the driver's way of telling you that you're pushing it too hard. In terms of performance the 3015 is on par with an Aston Martin. One would not expect Aston Martin to honor a warranty replacement claim should one drive it into a grove of trees. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1380630582' post='2228069'] One would not expect Aston Martin to honor a warranty replacement claim should one drive it into a grove of trees. [/quote] What a lovely turn of phrase! Take a bow, Mr. Fitzmaurice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1380630785' post='2228080'] Take a bow, Mr. Fitzmaurice. [/quote] You can probably find one in that grove of trees ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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