Stacking cabs

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='Youngatheart' post='220159' date='Jun 16 2008, 07:42 PM']Wow that started something off! But now I'm thinking b******s I wish I'd asked the question before ordering the 2x10 to go with my 1x15.
At present I have a GK 1x15 neo cab, so what would have been my best bet as the additional cab?
What I did go for was the GK 2x10 Goldline cab.[/quote]
At the risk of propogating an urban myth I would have said get another 1x15 neo cab. Dont forget that the 2x15 cab was as much a standard bass cab as an 8x10 - and Jaco used 2x15 cabs. When I started playing bass very few players went for all this multi cab lark that seems so popular now.

However, all may not be lost - try it and like my fans said - trust your ears. If it sounds OK it is OK but make sure you listen from more than just standing in front of it like you do at a gig - try and get into the room and hear what it sounds like there.

[gypsymoth]

there were folded horn cabs from Acoustic, Hiwatt and others in the late 60's /early 70's.

the thing is, a lot of people like the way less than perfect (totally/tonally flat response) sounds. isn't there a Lemmy thread elsewhere? use what sounds good to you.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='chris_b' post='219917' date='Jun 16 2008, 03:08 PM']I'm not questioning anyone's ability or knowledge, just how that knowledge is moulded into the advice that is given. [b]I'm not happy when beginners ask questions and get techno speak and "a lot of people say ...." in return![/b] It seems that people here look at the technical stuff and think "wow, I've got to do that", when they don't. Does anyone think that the icons of bass, Jamerson, Jaco and all the others knew anything about xmax or comb filtering or would even care if they were told? Did John Paul Jones or Stevie Wonder ever think, "I wonder why I sound like this"! These guys did what everyone should be doing and that is using their ears to listen and evaluate without worrying about SPL's etc.

While I find Bill Fitzmaurice's technical writing interesting, I know that at the end of the day Bill is also a businessman, he runs his own company and more importantly, seems to be running a crusade to tell the rest of the world they are making cabs the wrong way.

Well the “wrong way” has been pretty good to me and the rest of Rock and Roll for the last 60 years. There are many "right" ways and that advice has to be got across as well.[/quote]

Surely the very reason that people are asking is because they want to know and are specifically asking people who may well be knowledgeable on the subject!

Of course people experiment and pre t'internet, pretty much the only way to find out if something worked was 'suck it and see'. However there is a wealth of knowledge available (and being offered) on this forum; to deride, however mildly, someone for offering an educated insight is a bit narrow minded.

We could have a sticky at the top of the thread that just says 'Don't bother asking... just do it.' However it would make for a pretty boring forum

TBH it is 'almost' pointless asking anyone for an opinion on ANYTHING with regard to something as subjective as tone BUT science isn't subjective, so really that is the only advice that can mean a blasted thing.

[JPJ]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='220199' date='Jun 16 2008, 08:33 PM']Surely the very reason that people are asking is because they want to know and are specifically asking people who may well be knowledgeable on the subject!

Of course people experiment and pre t'internet, pretty much the only way to find out if something worked was 'suck it and see'. However there is a wealth of knowledge available (and being offered) on this forum; to deride, however mildly, someone for offering an educated insight is a bit narrow minded.

We could have a sticky at the top of the thread that just says 'Don't bother asking... just do it.' However it would make for a pretty boring forum

TBH it is 'almost' pointless asking anyone for an opinion on ANYTHING with regard to something as subjective as tone BUT science isn't subjective, so really that is the only advice that can mean a blasted thing.[/quote]

For my mind, there are two camps here, and for my money, neither is correct in all cases.

What Bill preaches is at the absolute pinnacle of audio engineering and there is no doubt that Bill knows his stuff and I enjoy reading his posts (and Alex C's too). But equally, I'm old skool and started gigging life with 2x15's and 4x12's. I now use a 4x10 + 1x15 setup that gives me the sound I want to hear. Sure, my cabs are less than efficient than they could be, but with the cost of amp heads in terms of £ per Watt at probably the best rate I've ever known, I am less worried about this than perhaps I should be.

I'd like to try some of Bill's cabs to see how they shape up soundwise. But equally, I'd be concerned that I'd end up eq'ing the hell out of them to make them sound like my current setup which would rather defeat the object.

[Hamster]

Tone is of course subjective, but the main arguments for me are sensitivity and weight which are empirical, cost which is cheaper and and the satisfaction of making something with your hands. The drawback is the availability, so I can't just turn up to a shop to plug and play to see if I like the tone.

As for the cab stacking question, there are the stated reasons above. But bear in mind what you hear or perceive on stage is not what is heard at the front/back/side of the venue.

Hamster

[The Funk]

There are three people whose opinions I would always take seriously when it comes to speaker cabs and they are Alex, Bill (BFM) and Andy (Acme Sounds).

Bill and Andy seem to agree about the fact that the basic cabinet technology for bass amps hasn't changed much since the first bass cabs (and that they employ the same design as guitar cabs), and that there is a basic problem with the design. They have different approaches to solving the problem but they both agree that the best way to reproduce a bass guitar signal is with a 3-way cabinet design (ie. woofer for the low end, mid-range driver for the mid-range, and a tweeter for the high end). Most bass amps don't have a mid-range driver or a tweeter. The woofers in most amps are used in such a way that they produce a distorted sound for the mid-range at the expense of low end. In some cabs this can sound pleasing to the ear (eg. Ampeg Fliptop on the Motown/Stax stuff or the huge Marshall stacks on the Cream/Lemmy stuff). But for those cabs there is a definite 'sweet spot', above G on the E-string and below the 12th fret. These days you might want to play below G on the E-string or high up on a C-string. The situation for guitar is different because the "poor" cabinet design and speaker distortion are the key to a great electric guitar sound.

The other problem with most bass cabs is to do with dispersion. Low frequencies are omni-directional, which means it doesn't really matter which way a subwoofer is facing - it'll reach all parts of the room fairly evenly. But higher frequencies are highly directional, meaning that the apparent volume you hear will vary massively depending on where you are standing in relation to the speakers.

I don't know about you guys but these are convincing reasons for me to do things differently. That's why I only use Acme cabs now - and if I wasn't so impatient, I'd look at getting a BFM Omni 10.5 or two. I now have deep lows, a very clear mid-range and smooth highs. I'm grateful for all the advice I received on here to help me make my choices.

I once tried stacking my old 1x15 on top of my 2x10. It didn't sound as good that way. I didn't know why. It just sounded crap. Obviously using your ears is important. Understanding why something doesn't sound great can help get you out of trouble - or spare you those problems in the first place.

[Dubs]

I’ve done a small bit of enclosure design (nothing on the level of BFM and the enclosures I’ve been working on are passive subwoofer enclosures designed for very low frequency responses for cinema – ported enclosures with a tuning frequency of between 18 and 26Hz) so I understand there’s a lot that you can do ‘wrong’ when it comes to getting the scientifically ‘perfect’ enclosure response or even the ‘perfect’ sound, but I think there’s a certain amount of charm in the sound that is produced from the poorly designed cabs of the past (and present). In my mind these are the ‘classic’ bass or guitar sounds that often people spend a lot of money on recreating. I’ll take the example of the Fender Twin (guitar amp) – I’ve no doubt it’s a properly sh*t design on a technical level, but the sound it produces is iconic which is the same for the classic open backed AC30 etc…
For bass I’d use the example of an SVT 8x10 from the early 70’s – this sound is still sought after regardless of whether the cab is efficient or produces a ‘correct’ sound from a technical perspective.

I think it’s great that there seems to be a lot more thought going into cab design in recent years, but I don’t think there’s any problem with people using a cab configuration that sounds good to them or suits the style of music they play.
I’m firmly on the proverbial fence with this one as I can appreciate a good enclosure design and I’m a bit of an audiophile when it comes to Hi-Fi, but I also like the sound of classic guitar amps and I strongly believe that when it comes down to music people should use what sounds good to them – it’s so subjective though. Occasionally I let it be known that I’m not a fan of certain gear, but I’d tend veer away from telling someone that they fundamentally shouldn’t use a bit of gear because in my subjective point of view it sounds crap – I’ve done it a few times though

[warwickhunt]

Don't get me wrong, the last thing that I am actually searching for in my quest for sonic heaven is a flat response cab and amp that faithfully reproduces every f*ck up I make on the bass

I want a cab with a bit of colour (preferably a sort of dark chocolaty brown <sorry that may well bug the p*ss out of Alex > ), unfortunately (for me) I had the tone I like for about 12 years from a pair of vertically aligned, vertically stacked 2x10 H&K combos that clocked in at about 45kg each. The combos both imploded at virtually the same time (it wasn't the 1 year + 1 week bug that they put into replacement car exhausts and vacuum cleaners) and were financially unrepairable; ever since then I've been searching for that 'imperfect' tone. Sigh!

I suppose the difficulty for me is that even with the knowledge gleaned from various persons on this forum, and from other sources, I've STILL not learned my lesson. Hopefully the OP will

[thinman]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='220296' date='Jun 16 2008, 11:26 PM']Don't get me wrong, the last thing that I am actually searching for in my quest for sonic heaven is a flat response cab and amp that faithfully reproduces every f*ck up I make on the bass

I want a cab with a bit of colour (preferably a sort of dark chocolaty brown <sorry that may well bug the p*ss out of Alex > ), unfortunately (for me) I had the tone I like for about 12 years from a pair of vertically aligned, vertically stacked 2x10 H&K combos that clocked in at about 45kg each. The combos both imploded at virtually the same time (it wasn't the 1 year + 1 week bug that they put into replacement car exhausts and vacuum cleaners) and were financially unrepairable; ever since then I've been searching for that 'imperfect' tone. Sigh!

I suppose the difficulty for me is that even with the knowledge gleaned from various persons on this forum, and from other sources, I've STILL not learned my lesson. Hopefully the OP will [/quote]
One of your old H+K heads is now doing a sterling service on top of a BFM Omni10 now... Played a pub on Saturday with it and got a few comments about the sound. Knocks spots off the Ashdowns, Traces and Warwick amps I've used in the same situations.

I'm with Bill here. I'm not knocking all commercially available stuff at all but those firms have to shift stuff to survive and to do so have to appeal to current fads and fashions, possibly more so at the lower and middle end of the market. An awful lot of low-end hi fi gets sold on looks, buttons and gizmos - not sound - and I suspect certain sectors of the bass amplification market fall into the same situation. When I was younger everyone wanted Marshall so I bought one. It was the worst sounding thing I ever owned.

Also, it was never said that mixing cabs won't work - "unpredictable" was the word. I just think heeding Bill's advice will make life less hit and miss.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Youngatheart' post='220159' date='Jun 16 2008, 07:42 PM']Wow that started something off! But now I'm thinking b******s I wish I'd asked the question before ordering the 2x10 to go with my 1x15.
At present I have a GK 1x15 neo cab, so what would have been my best bet as the additional cab?
What I did go for was the GK 2x10 Goldline cab.[/quote]
Sorry but this is my point. Your 2x10 WILL sound great on your 1x15; don't be put off by people telling you that you will have a problem because you won't. Thousands of bass players successfully use this set up. You're playing Bonjovi and Brian Adams, check out their videos. You'll see mainly 4x12 stacks. If they're not worried about bloody comb filtering you shouldn't be either. This is rock and roll not a science lesson!!

[The Funk]

[quote name='chris_b' post='220319' date='Jun 17 2008, 12:28 AM']Sorry but this is my point. Your 2x10 WILL sound great on your 1x15; don't be put off by people telling you that you will have a problem because you won't. Thousands of bass players successfully use this set up. You're playing Bonjovi and Brian Adams, check out their videos. You'll see mainly 4x12 stacks. If they're not worried about bloody comb filtering you shouldn't be either. This is rock and roll not a science lesson!![/quote]

I'm pretty sure the bassist in Bon Jovi and the one for Bryan Adams DI in the studio and on stage. They may use the 4x12 stacks for monitoring (if any of them are actually hooked up to anything).

I will say that charic and chris have a point that when it comes to live work where you're going through a PA and good monitors, dispersion from your cabs and their frequency response don't matter so much 'cos they're mainly for show. The rest of your band will hear you through monitors - not from your amp - and the audience will hear you from the PA speakers.

Chris and various others are also right that if something sounds great then science won't disprove that. I will never go back to using standard bass cabs again though. They can't match the low end depth and mid-range clarity of 3-way cabs - and that is what I want from my cabs.

Edited June 16, 2008 by The Funk

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='The Funk' post='220321' date='Jun 17 2008, 12:37 AM']I'm pretty sure the bassist in Bon Jovi and the one for Bryan Adams DI in the studio and on stage. They may use the 4x12 stacks for monitoring (if any of them are actually hooked up to anything).

I will say that charic and chris have a point that when it comes to live work where you're going through a PA and good monitors, dispersion from your cabs and their frequency response don't matter so much 'cos they're mainly for show. The rest of your band will hear you through monitors - not from your amp - and the audience will hear you from the PA speakers.

Chris and various others are also right that if something sounds great then science won't disprove that. I will never go back to using standard bass cabs again though. They can't match the low end depth and mid-range clarity of 3-way cabs - and that is what I want from my cabs.[/quote]

i think this is where the miss conception is, when going through the PA your rig is your monitor and the onstage sound will probably not suffer from the stacking problems, its out front where the patchiness comes in and the PA takes care of that. it is however when you are using your rig to do the front of house sound, to get the absolute best sound it makes sense to follow bills advice but that by no way means that the traditional format wont work.

alot of the big bands use in ear monitoring and the cabs on stage are really for show and what you hear out front is all from the massive PA.

basically if it works for you and you and your band are happy with the sound you are getting then keep doing it, if you are looking for sonic heaven (did i just say that) then go down bills route.

just to prove a point, my combo sounds great wether on its side or in normal position when i'm up close to it (within about 7ft) its when i move alot further away that things change, when its in its normal position you can find 'dead spots' in the room when its on its side the sound is much more consistant. i have yet to try any other combinations of cabs and so am currently taking heed from those who have built and tried bills designs and what bill recommends, but if i find that i like the sound of a 2x10 1x15 setup then thats what i'll use, however the 2x10 will still be on its side.

at then end of the day there really is no right or wrong here just what sounds best to you.

[Dubs]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='220408' date='Jun 17 2008, 10:23 AM']if you are looking for sonic heaven (did i just say that) then go down bills route.[/quote]

“Sonic Heaven” is subjective in itself, but I understand what you’re getting at.

--------------

I tried to make the point in my last post that there’s a lot of subjectivity when it comes down to “what sounds best”, but either way I don’t think that anyone can reasonably deny or talk down the scientifically proven methods for efficient and effective cab design. Anyone that does is just a bit of an idiot and obviously lacking in any technical understanding of the mechanics of enclosure design.

[Merton]

[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='220439' date='Jun 17 2008, 10:56 AM']I tried to make the point in my last post that there’s a lot of subjectivity when it comes down to “what sounds best”, but either way I don’t think that anyone can reasonably deny or talk down the scientifically proven methods for efficient and effective cab design. Anyone that does is just a bit of an idiot and obviously lacking in any technical understanding of the mechanics of enclosure design.[/quote]
Well said

[lowhand_mike]

+ the 1

sorry sonic heaven was a bit tongue in cheek but at least it made sense for a change

[chris_b]

[quote name='The Funk' post='220321' date='Jun 17 2008, 12:37 AM']....I'm pretty sure the bassist in Bon Jovi and the one for Bryan Adams DI in the studio and on stage....[/quote]
OK, maybe the Video idea wasn't the most convincing suggestion!!

To the OP, if it stacking a 1x15 on top of a 2x10 sounds good to you, then screw the science.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='chris_b' post='220489' date='Jun 17 2008, 11:49 AM']OK, maybe the Video idea wasn't the most convincing suggestion!!

To the OP, if it stacking a 1x15 on top of a 2x10 sounds good to you, then screw the science.[/quote]

exactly

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='220024' date='Jun 16 2008, 04:55 PM']+1. The engineering used by the vast majority of musical instrument cabs has not changed significantly since the mid 1970s, and it was 30 years obsolete even then. If either Leo Fender or Jim Marshall had possessed beyond a rudimentary knowledge of audio theory in general and loudspeaker design in particular the vast majority of musical instrument speaker topologies introduced since 1955 would never have appeared in the first place. Fender was a machinest who didn't even play guitar or bass, and Marshall was a drummer. Their method of speaker design was 'stick some drivers in a box'. Unfortunately they set a flawed standard that still dominates the marketplace today.[/quote]

I think you'll find that Leo Fender was an accountant by profession. I must say, I've never heard a guitar of bass player who has ever expressed anything but the utmost admiration for both Leo Fender and Jim Marshall. In fact, whenever anyone mentions that Leo Fender wasn't a guitar player, it's always to draw attention to the enormity of his achievement in producing the designs he did.

What exactly is this "flawed standard"? Can you be more specific?

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='stevie' post='220772' date='Jun 17 2008, 05:31 PM']I think you'll find that Leo Fender was an accountant by profession. I must say, I've never heard a guitar of bass player who has ever expressed anything but the utmost admiration for both Leo Fender and Jim Marshall. In fact, whenever anyone mentions that Leo Fender wasn't a guitar player, it's always to draw attention to the enormity of his achievement in producing the designs he did.

[b]What exactly is this "flawed standard"? Can you be more specific?[/b][/quote]

You must have missed the other 63 threads on the same/similar subject

[lowhand_mike]

basically stevie take a look at this, it should explain everything.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=21267"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=21267[/url]

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stevie' post='220772' date='Jun 17 2008, 12:31 PM']What exactly is this "flawed standard"? Can you be more specific?[/quote]
Foremost, placing drivers horizontally. For an example of how drivers should be placed investigate the circa 1950 PA installation in St. Paul's Cathedral in London, which was only recently upgraded because it worked so well for a half century plus despite being in the most difficult of environments. Assumption is Jim Marshall was not a parishoner.

[gilmour]

[quote name='The Funk' post='220321' date='Jun 17 2008, 12:37 AM']I will say that charic and chris have a point that when it comes to live work where you're going through a PA and good monitors, dispersion from your cabs and their frequency response don't matter so much 'cos they're mainly for show. The rest of your band will hear you through monitors - not from your amp - and the audience will hear you from the PA speakers.[/quote]

It's also probably worth pointing out that most PA's work with, Subs, Mids and Tops, (thus avoiding comb filtering) and that 90% of the time the bass is DI'd straight into the desk (even when it's Mic'd the engineer will usually take a DI too), so the sound we all hear and enjoy at live gigs isn't the sound of the backline, but IS the sound of a bass going through a much better designed cabinet.

I used a 4x10 on top of a 1x15 for over 10 years untill switching to one of Bill's designs earlier this year, and I wonder how I ever managed, every gig I dep on where there is a different system my heart sinks (especillay those bloody Ampeg 8x10s) that said I'm not in a rock band where that grunty sound is more desirable.

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='220296' date='Jun 16 2008, 11:26 PM']Don't get me wrong, the last thing that I am actually searching for in my quest for sonic heaven is a flat response cab and amp that faithfully reproduces every f*ck up I make on the bass [/quote]

Hehhe, in seriousness you do notice more of your mistakes this way... but I guess that's a good thing

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='220794' date='Jun 17 2008, 05:56 PM']Foremost, placing drivers horizontally. For an example of how drivers should be placed investigate the circa 1950 PA installation in St. Paul's Cathedral in London, which was only recently upgraded because it worked so well for a half century plus despite being in the most difficult of environments. Assumption is Jim Marshall was not a parishoner.[/quote]

You think a bass rig should be designed on the principles of a public address system? The mind boggles.

Of course, if you are going to build column speakers, placing drivers horizontally is a no-no. Similarly for hi-fi, where slim cabinets are fashionable.

By 'placing drivers horizontally', I assume you mean like this:[attachment=9729:SCM200ASL_Pro.JPG]

[stevie]

Studio monitors from ATC, Quested and Dynaudio, by the way.

And when these guys need four drivers, guess what?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stevie' post='220863' date='Jun 17 2008, 02:19 PM']Studio monitors from ATC, Quested and Dynaudio, by the way.

And when these guys need four drivers, guess what?[/quote]
Stevie, you'd have a lot more success arguing the fine points of loudspeaker design if you understood any of them. If you did you'd know that drivers may be placed on the horizontal plane if they are crossed over below the frequency that is 1 wavelength at their CTC spacing.
Debating the laws of acoustics is a waste of my time, as being laws they are not subject to debate. I'm usually quite patient at explaining said laws and how they affect gear choices to those who have an interest in furthering their education. OTOH you strike me as one who clearly has already acquired all the knowledge he ever cares to, and that being the case please refrain from wasting any more of my time.

Edited June 17, 2008 by Bill Fitzmaurice