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In Ear Monitors - help needed...


MoJoKe

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I realize it doesn't suit everyone's needs or budget, but this really brings on the missing low end from IEMs: https://www.porteranddavies.co.uk/products/bc-gigster/

Although designed for kick drum, it works incredibly well for bass guitar, too. I use the throne, but there is a platform for playing standing: https://www.porteranddavies.co.uk/products/kt-platform/

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On 07/07/2018 at 09:01, LukeFRC said:

Just wondering which ones the "regular rubber tips" are?

I've been using UE900s for a while now, church set up, no backline and everything IEM with our own little mixer things... 
With the Silicon tips they are more or less useless for me. I can't get a good enough seal to get much low end.
The comply foam tips give me the seal I need to hear the bass - I often end up cutting the bottom end on the eq on the mixer for my send- and need to massively turn the kick drum down in order for my mix to not be overly bassey.

 

In the lower end before any customs i think there is a balance...  
I think there is an interesting balance here between audiophile sound like I would want sat at home listening to some music, and what I want for a live mix - they arn't nesserally the same are them? The UE900s are way better than standard headphones - and let me hear the bass for bass duties I think a massive bottom end to the sound would possibly be a hindrance to having the clarity the top end for timing....
 

It's the standard silicone tips that shipped with the IEMs. I didn't know what they were made from :). I found them easier to use than the ones with the foam.

The UE900s have seemingly much less bass than the Sennheisers, and now I understand why from the earlier explanation in this thread from EBS_Freak. They are clearer sounding in a sense. I used the UE900s and Snugs again last night and they worked ok, I was able to get them to seat better. But, I laugh, smile and move around quite a bit when playing and any of those actions would make the seal pop and I'd have to futz with my ears to get them seated again while playing. So I'm more content with using them but am still struggling with the IEM thing :).

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7 hours ago, TPJ said:

It's the standard silicone tips that shipped with the IEMs. I didn't know what they were made from :). I found them easier to use than the ones with the foam.

The UE900s have seemingly much less bass than the Sennheisers, and now I understand why from the earlier explanation in this thread from EBS_Freak. They are clearer sounding in a sense. I used the UE900s and Snugs again last night and they worked ok, I was able to get them to seat better. But, I laugh, smile and move around quite a bit when playing and any of those actions would make the seal pop and I'd have to futz with my ears to get them seated again while playing. So I'm more content with using them but am still struggling with the IEM thing :).

I think if you can get the seal right that they should have a bit more bass than with the silicon. 

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11 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

I think if you can get the seal right that they should have a bit more bass than with the silicon. 

I find the opposite.

But then they fall out. And then I get no bass. Or any sound for that matter.

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On 07/07/2018 at 18:22, Hambone said:

I realize it doesn't suit everyone's needs or budget, but this really brings on the missing low end from IEMs: https://www.porteranddavies.co.uk/products/bc-gigster/

Although designed for kick drum, it works incredibly well for bass guitar, too. I use the throne, but there is a platform for playing standing: https://www.porteranddavies.co.uk/products/kt-platform/

Didn't want your post to go unnoticed.

Yeah - theres a few guys on here that use them. Theres the P&D option, Eich bass board - and I even have a home-brew version. However... the whole point of going IEM for me was to take less gear to gigs... which I why I tend not to use them... and they tend to pin you to the spot which makes watching a band a bit dull imho. (Kinda great if you a band playing on a small stage and got nowhere to roam though!)

Alternatives that we have talked about on this thread though are the woojer strap (which I use when I can be bothered) and the Backbeat - which is due out soon.  

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On 06/07/2018 at 12:55, EBS_freak said:

Of course, that's not taking into account the custom SCS art work you'd have... and the custom SCS orange acrylic you'd order... and while you're at it, the thermosoft tips... etc. etc.... Could get pricey 😜

They'd be the subs bench pair so TBH, don't think I'd go with the full on corporate branding 😉

I am wondering about giving these a go but in two minds as to which pair to get reshelled. The UE900s or the KZ10s. If it's the latter, seems a lot of money to invest in a pair of 40 quid phones but I don't find them that bad. Mind you, my ears ain't as cultured as yours.

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5 hours ago, tonyf said:

They'd be the subs bench pair so TBH, don't think I'd go with the full on corporate branding 😉

I am wondering about giving these a go but in two minds as to which pair to get reshelled. The UE900s or the KZ10s. If it's the latter, seems a lot of money to invest in a pair of 40 quid phones but I don't find them that bad. Mind you, my ears ain't as cultured as yours.

Personally I think the sound signature of the KZ10s aren't that great but I'm pretty sure you'd have a bit of a game reshelling them and getting them to sound right because the balances armatures appear to be tubeless - and I'm not sure whether the dynamic would be able to be reshelled because most makers avoid dynamics...

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18 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Personally I think the sound signature of the KZ10s aren't that great but I'm pretty sure you'd have a bit of a game reshelling them and getting them to sound right because the balances armatures appear to be tubeless - and I'm not sure whether the dynamic would be able to be reshelled because most makers avoid dynamics...

So the UE900s it is then. 

@intime-nick, are you definitely going to get your UE900s reshelled by LUGS? 

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So yeah, the N8t...


I liked it. I liked it a lot. But not as much as the 12 - which for me, is still the piece (ignoring the difference in the price) I would go for from 64.

They are both very similar sounding pieces but I much prefer what the bass is doing on the 12. It hits harder, I perceived it to be tighter in the sub bass and with significantly more attack. Overall, I would say the 12 sounds a lot more controlled than the n8t does. It's not a big surprise that the two pieces otherwise sound quite comparable given the similarities in the driver count - but here's the thing for me... The lows in the n8t are a bit less defined (but not muddy) - which is a bit weird given the marketing around it - but I could understand how some people would really like that that sort of signature. It probably has more of a inherent personality tonally than the 12.

When describing how I felt about it to Paul (bearing in mind he hadn't heard it yet - I am actually the first to have had his n8t demos in my ears!), I said that I feel like the bass is bit more like sticking a sub in a cars boot - yes, lots of bass but not necessarily as focused as it could be. I found the lows smeared a little with the lower mids - but the extended range of the mids as a whole are lovely. Very smooth and slightly warmer (but only a tiny amount that I don't think you would notice if you allowed any significant time in between testing the 2 side by side) than the 12... but I guess that's where the dynamic is showing it's colour over the balanced armature. The n8t doesn't have that bump in the lows (eq wise) that that 12s had... but I think it's that bump that I prefer in the 12s over the n8ts.

So the other pieces I was trying out were the Layla, Lola and Roxanne. Obviously, I'm very familiar with the Roxanne and that was the piece I started with. Immediately I recognised the sound signature even though they have been out of my ears for a while. Switching to Lola, I recognised the subtle difference in the mids. Again, warmer and fatter - the "bloom" that I talk about it. The Siren series are generally quite dark anyway - but I would say that the added dynamic in the mid (note JH apply their dynamic to the mid as opposed to the bass) makes things all thick and gooey - but in a good way. Very revealing, yet very warm and smooth in your ears. There is one issue I've always had with the Roxanne that was similarly present in the Lola. For my ears, there is a slight sibilance issue with ts and esses. Not an annoyance to point of distraction - but still there nonetheless. So Layla. Lovely piece and I was prepared to spend the money - however... I found it ultimately a bit flat sounding compared to the Roxannes and Lolas. The latter pieces have more of a personality in the bass that the Layla doesn't exhibit as much... I definitely think I'm not into flat response in the bass. I like hyped bass. So ultimately, Layla was out - and I still preferred the tightness of the balanced armatures in the Roxannes over the dynamic of the Lola.

So you've had my thoughts on the 64 but crucially, it was the 12s verses the Roxannes that I was most interested in. The 12s had better bass - which absolutely shocked me when A/Bing the two side by side. The 12s had a thicker mid despite the Roxanne overall sounding darker. The 12s defo sounded wider and had more "air" (which probably contributes to the 12s sounding less dark than the Roxannes)... but the thing that sealed the deal for me was that the 12s didn't display any of the same sibilance issues that I got with the Roxannes and Lola. (Again, sibilance can be down to my ears as opposed to an issue with the piece itself. Jerry Harvey's ears for example, are going to be different to mine!).

Paul hasn't currently got a set of 18s to try but I felt confident I wouldn't like the flatter response given the difference I'd heard between the Layla and it's not so flat siblings, Roxanne and Lola. My other concern was the amount of drivers in the shell - I don't want to look like Shrek on stage!

So it probably comes as no surprise that I ordered a 12t... and I'm pretty excited about getting hold of them. So to confirm my opening statement... the 12 is still the piece that I would go for from 64... and did!

As a note, I don't listen to whole songs when test IEMs in a shoot out, I switch regularly between the pieces and listen to literally 10 seconds snippets. For those interests, these are the things I was listening to -

Hotel California (Hell Freezes Over version) (live) - despite being a live recording, I believe this is one of the best recordings out there to try out an IEM. It's got lots of space in the mix, lots going on in the lows, lots of stereo separation going on (listen to the percussion for a start), lots of detail throughout the whole frequency spectrum - and for me, shows up any sibilance issues that I may have with the vocals.

Walking in Memphis - Marc Cohen - just a great studio performance with a lovely thick vocal and is superbly balanced and mixed.

Cars and Girls - Prefab Sprout - I don't mind the song but actually hate this recording with a passion but always use this recording to check out sibilance on an IEM. There's a shed load of esses everywhere on this recording that are present on every set up going. If you want to know exactly how bad the esses can be on your IEMs, this is the track to do it.

Free - Rudimental - the bass monster finder. If you IEMs can kick hard to the point where you can't stand the bass, your IEMs are officially a bass monster. Bass drum, sub bass, thick mid, female vocal. All extremes!

Not necessarily the songs the I would listen to on a daily basis... but I do tend to keep coming back to them to test stuff out.

So endeth the JH era, hello 64. What I should say though though, is when you get to this level, they are ALL amazing pieces... and it's literally that last 10% that you get picky over? Would I order the Roxanne again? Of course I would! - it just felt it would be prudent to run through all the pieces again back to back to make sure I was still happy with the Roxannes. Of course I would be happy with the Roxannes... but it would seem I'd be a tiny bit happier with the A12ts.

Edited by EBS_freak
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57 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

So yeah, the N8t...


I liked it. I liked it a lot. But not as much as the 12 - which for me, is still the piece (ignoring the difference in the price) I would go for from 64.

They are both very similar sounding pieces but I much prefer what the bass is doing on the 12. It hits harder, I perceived it to be tighter in the sub bass and with significantly more attack. Overall, I would say the 12 sounds a lot more controlled than the n8t does. It's not a big surprise that the two pieces otherwise sound quite comparable given the similarities in the driver count - but here's the thing for me... The lows in the n8t are a bit less defined (but not muddy) - which is a bit weird given the marketing around it - but I could understand how some people would really like that that sort of signature. It probably has more of a inherent personality tonally than the 12.

When describing how I felt about it to Paul (bearing in mind he hadn't heard it yet - I am actually the first to have had his n8t demos in my ears!), I said that I feel like the bass is bit more like sticking a sub in a cars boot - yes, lots of bass but not necessarily as focused as it could be. I found the lows smeared a little with the lower mids - but the extended range of the mids as a whole are lovely. Very smooth and slightly warmer (but only a tiny amount that I don't think you would notice if you allowed any significant time in between testing the 2 side by side) than the 12... but I guess that's where the dynamic is showing it's colour over the balanced armature. The n8t doesn't have that bump in the lows (eq wise) that that 12s had... but I think it's that bump that I prefer in the 12s over the n8ts.

So the other pieces I was trying out were the Layla, Lola and Roxanne. Obviously, I'm very familiar with the Roxanne and that was the piece I started with. Immediately I recognised the sound signature even though they have been out of my ears for a while. Switching to Lola, I recognised the subtle difference in the mids. Again, warmer and fatter - the "bloom" that I talk about it. The Siren series are generally quite dark anyway - but I would say that the added dynamic in the mid (note JH apply their dynamic to the mid as opposed to the bass) makes things all thick and gooey - but in a good way. Very revealing, yet very warm and smooth in your ears. There is one issue I've always had with the Roxanne that was similarly present in the Lola. For my ears, there is a slight sibilance issue with ts and esses. Not an annoyance to point of distraction - but still there nonetheless. So Layla. Lovely piece and I was prepared to spend the money - however... I found it ultimately a bit flat sounding compared to the Roxannes and Lolas. The latter pieces have more of a personality in the bass that the Layla doesn't exhibit as much... I definitely think I'm not into flat response in the bass. I like hyped bass. So ultimately, Layla was out - and I still preferred the tightness of the balanced armatures in the Roxannes over the dynamic of the Lola.

So you've had my thoughts on the 64 but crucially, it was the 12s verses the Roxannes that I was most interested in. The 12s had better bass - which absolutely shocked me when A/Bing the two side by side. The 12s had a thicker mid despite the Roxanne overall sounding darker. The 12s defo sounded wider and had more "air" (which probably contributes to the 12s sounding less dark than the Roxannes)... but the thing that sealed the deal for me was that the 12s didn't display any of the same sibilance issues that I got with the Roxannes and Lola. (Again, sibilance can be down to my ears as opposed to an issue with the piece itself. Jerry Harvey's ears for example, are going to be different to mine!).

Paul hasn't currently got a set of 18s to try but I felt confident I wouldn't like the flatter response given the difference I'd heard between the Layla and it's not so flat siblings, Roxanne and Lola. My other concern was the amount of drivers in the shell - I don't want to look like Shrek on stage!

So it probably comes as no surprise that I ordered a 12t... and I'm pretty excited about getting hold of them. So to confirm my opening statement... the 12 is still the piece that I would go for from 64... and did!

As a note, I don't listen to whole songs when test IEMs in a shoot out, I switch regularly between the pieces and listen to literally 10 seconds snippets. For those interests, these are the things I was listening to -

Hotel California (Hell Freezes Over version) (live) - despite being a live recording, I believe this is one of the best recordings out there to try out an IEM. It's got lots of space in the mix, lots going on in the lows, lots of stereo separation going on (listen to the percussion for a start), lots of detail throughout the whole frequency spectrum - and for me, shows up any sibilance issues that I may have with the vocals.

Walking in Memphis - Marc Cohen - just a great studio performance with a lovely thick vocal and is superbly balanced and mixed.

Cars and Girls - Prefab Sprout - I don't mind the song but actually hate this recording with a passion but always use this recording to check out sibilance on an IEM. There's a shed load of esses everywhere on this recording that are present on every set up going. If you want to know exactly how bad the esses can be on your IEMs, this is the track to do it.

Free - Rudimental - the bass monster finder. If you IEMs can kick hard to the point where you can't stand the bass, your IEMs are officially a bass monster. Bass drum, sub bass, thick mid, female vocal. All extremes!

Not necessarily the songs the I would listen to on a daily basis... but I do tend to keep coming back to them to test stuff out.

So endeth the JH era, hello 64. What I should say though though, is when you get to this level, they are ALL amazing pieces... and it's literally that last 10% that you get picky over? Would I order the Roxanne again? Of course I would! - it just felt it would be prudent to run through all the pieces again back to back to make sure I was still happy with the Roxannes. Of course I would be happy with the Roxannes... but it would seem I'd be a tiny bit happier with the A12ts.

Great work homie. Glad you've found your new ear candy. Welcome to the 64 family 😉 

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14 minutes ago, tonyf said:

Great work homie. Glad you've found your new ear candy. Welcome to the 64 family 😉 

Apparently 3 weeks too. So not too long to wait. Remember the Roxanne wait....? That was a lifetime! No carbon to contend with this time though!

Bizarrely enough, I was pretty bummed out about the fate of my Roxannes as you can imagine... - but yesterdays session has got me well excited again. It was a bit of a surprise for me to be honest because once I put the Roxannes in again and then listened to the Lola, I was like, yep, yep, another set of Roxannes defo... but things turned out a little different it would seem! 😛

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11 minutes ago, DaytonaRik said:

I think they turned mine around in 8 days so be prepared for a surprise.  The online order progress tool is great but annoying at the same time!

My JHs were 6 months! (They announced Carbon Fiber as a build option.... and it crippled them). Even without CF, JH used to be months.The advances in 3d scanning and emailing to avoid the shipping of moulds and 3d printing has certainly helped getting the timescales way, way down.

At the time, the thought of CF was actually a cool addition as at the time, they were the only manufacturer offering a whole CF build and the surcharge to do so was fairly minimal. I certainly wouldn't pay the price they want for it now - especially having lived with them now - they are much harder to clean because you can't see whats in the tubes. I would also recommend that people go for trans/semi trans on the shell for this reason alone!

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18 minutes ago, DaytonaRik said:

Meanwhile - us mortals with the A3s dream of such goodies!  Nice score though 😎👍

It's all relative I guess. I spend ALOT Of time with IEMs in my ears and as you can probably tell from this thread, it's pretty much my thing! The A3s are a nice piece... in fact, EVERYTHING from UE, 64 and JH are pretty nice! The main thing is, is that they do the job and keep your ears safe!

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25 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

It's all relative I guess. I spend ALOT Of time with IEMs in my ears and as you can probably tell from this thread, it's pretty much my thing! The A3s are a nice piece... in fact, EVERYTHING from UE, 64 and JH are pretty nice! The main thing is, is that they do the job and keep your ears safe!

You sir, are pretty much the font of all IEM knowledge and everyone who has ever asked your advice (including myself) are always in your debt.  I'm just a weekend warrior and the A3's suit my needs and budget accordingly.  It doesn't, however, stop me dreaming does it! 😉

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Just ordered a set of custom quads from Robert at LUGS - should have them in a couple of weeks.  Will keep everyone who’s interested updated.   He has been very helpful so far in answering my questions and seems very amenable.  Proof is in the listening of course, but so far, so good  

Order was for clear shells, red(right) faceplate, blue(left) faceplate, thermosoft tips and std 2 pin recessed connector.  Went for a 2x low, 1x mid and 1x high arrangement. 

Edited by intime-nick
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