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MoJoKe

In Ear Monitors - help needed...

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Posted (edited)
[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1483622736' post='3208730']
have you tried the M6s? Our drummer loves them
[/quote]
Yes - a drummer I work with uses them. They seem to be the go to inear whenever anybody asks a drummer about IEMs on Facebook. I think they are a tad bass light and not particularly comfortable... but great value for money. Trouble is, none of these guys have ever used anything with some serious clout... so yeah, they are good because they sound better than their reference - which is usually a set of ear buds that came free with their phone.

Certainly not in the same ballpark (or planet) as the UE900s though.

To be fair, most people know no better... but like for bass players, as a drummer, I would want a minimum of a quad balanced armature with a dual low. Edited by EBS_freak

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My UE900s arrived yesterday. Got them from Toby deals for £174.99 inc delivery but the trade off is it took 12 days for them to arrive.
As mentioned before I've been using mee m6s until now. Initial impressions are that the UE900s are a big step up. Just a much stronger, more balanced and more detailed sound with bass that is solid and not boomy. Not as comfortable as I had hoped but I'm having them re-shelled into custom moulds at the end of the month anyway so a moot point for me. I'll update once that's done.

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My biggest problem when playing was the isolation the IEM's gave me, so be careful. The custom moulds will be even more isolating than the cheap IEM you have just now. Our desk had no more channels for ambient mic(s) and even when I did manage to try an ambient mic, it picked up so much stage noise it was hardly worth it. Because of this, our keyboard player eventually went for the ACS Live! system but at over £1000 it ain't cheap. I went for the new Westone AM Pro 30 IEM as a compromise. Fantastic, giving me a 12db noise reduction so I can still hear the other guys/girls onstage when not playing or when someone from the crowd speaks to me but when the music starts it's the band mix I hear. Triple drivers which aren't perfect, I know, but still giving a decent bass response through them.

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[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1483683812' post='3209211']
My UE900s arrived yesterday. Got them from Toby deals for £174.99 inc delivery but the trade off is it took 12 days for them to arrive.
As mentioned before I've been using mee m6s until now. Initial impressions are that the UE900s are a big step up. Just a much stronger, more balanced and more detailed sound with bass that is solid and not boomy. Not as comfortable as I had hoped but I'm having them re-shelled into custom moulds at the end of the month anyway so a moot point for me. I'll update once that's done.
[/quote]
£174.99 is a good price.
So which re-shells are you going for? Inearz?

Please do post the before and after pics of the reshell!

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[quote name='largo' timestamp='1483695434' post='3209278']
My biggest problem when playing was the isolation the IEM's gave me, so be careful. The custom moulds will be even more isolating than the cheap IEM you have just now. Our desk had no more channels for ambient mic(s) and even when I did manage to try an ambient mic, it picked up so much stage noise it was hardly worth it. Because of this, our keyboard player eventually went for the ACS Live! system but at over £1000 it ain't cheap. I went for the new Westone AM Pro 30 IEM as a compromise. Fantastic, giving me a 12db noise reduction so I can still hear the other guys/girls onstage when not playing or when someone from the crowd speaks to me but when the music starts it's the band mix I hear. Triple drivers which aren't perfect, I know, but still giving a decent bass response through them.
[/quote]

Some people like the isolation. I'd take isolation over a boomy, highly reflective stage.

I'm trying to understand you ambient mic problems - what was the major problems with it? The only reason I say this, is that if you can't get on with ambient mics, the Live! systems is unlikely to help you out either. Theres no reason, for a static position on stage, ambient mics through the desk can't actually be better than the Live! system. With proper condensers, panning and shelving EQ, a decent set of ambient mics should blow the mini mics on the ACS ears out of the water. I'm not talking theoretical, I have the ACS live system... and although I do think it's a great concept, I do also think it is flawed for high SPL or for people that crave bass (distortion city). (The fact that ACS don't do dual low inears is a bit of a downer too - although that's not likely to change any time soon as the MD doesn't subscribe to the idea of having that much acoustic energy being pumped into the ear drum - means that for drummers and bassists, ACS don't deliver as well as the competitors in the lows).

I know we've talked about the Westones and their ambient abilities. I still want to try them out as experience has shown me that any ambient port to the outside world means a loss of bass response... I know the Westone blurb contradicts this.

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[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1483683812' post='3209211']
My UE900s arrived yesterday. Got them from Toby deals for £174.99 inc delivery but the trade off is it took 12 days for them to arrive.
As mentioned before I've been using mee m6s until now. Initial impressions are that the UE900s are a big step up. Just a much stronger, more balanced and more detailed sound with bass that is solid and not boomy. Not as comfortable as I had hoped but I'm having them re-shelled into custom moulds at the end of the month anyway so a moot point for me. I'll update once that's done.
[/quote] oh thats' good to hear.

One of the slight things with IEM is it's not easy to try lots out! I went for the ue900s in my choice between them and the cheaper mee m6s ... sounds like I made the right choice.
I found they're not the most comfortable things I've worn!

What's the craic with reshelling?

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http://www.custom-inearmonitors.co.uk/reshells-remoulds/reshelling-remoulding-service-for-in-ear-monitors.html

Check the above for reshelling in the UK through Paul at the CIEM company. You'll need to get some impressions done of your ears... choose your design... submit your donor IEMs... and wait.

Payment will factor into there at some point too! :P

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[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1484062473' post='3212332']
Used them at practice last night - freakingly i could hear everything! :)
[/quote]

A good result!

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Aye, I was at work, and lunch ended so couldn't type more...

Sounded great - the bottom end wasn't amazing so need to work on how well they fit, but everything was there and audible.
If anything it made me realise all the mistakes of my playing - the shock of hearing everything - combined with the first time with a new drummer meant it wasn't a stressless experience - but for the first time ever I could hear everything. We have the Allen and Heath setup which lets you do your own mix, and as normal its fairly hard to get the mix sounding balanced.

But everything also was a lot quieter in my ears. :)

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[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1484077331' post='3212524']
Aye, I was at work, and lunch ended so couldn't type more...

Sounded great - the bottom end wasn't amazing so need to work on how well they fit, but everything was there and audible.
If anything it made me realise all the mistakes of my playing - the shock of hearing everything - combined with the first time with a new drummer meant it wasn't a stressless experience - but for the first time ever I could hear everything. We have the Allen and Heath setup which lets you do your own mix, and as normal its fairly hard to get the mix sounding balanced.

But everything also was a lot quieter in my ears. :)
[/quote]

The mix will balance out over time, with every time you use it, the amount of tweaking between playing will get less and less.

Presume that you are on a QU? Remember, you have compression and EQ available, so make use of it to help you hear what you need... but as you state, make sure the fit is good in your ears as a starting point.

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[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1484083974' post='3212613']


The mix will balance out over time, with every time you use it, the amount of tweaking between playing will get less and less.

Presume that you are on a QU? Remember, you have compression and EQ available, so make use of it to help you hear what you need... but as you state, make sure the fit is good in your ears as a starting point.
[/quote] QU?

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[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1484125049' post='3212798']
Qu - range of Allen and Heath digital mixers.
[/quote] ahh GLD 80 I think it is and we have the ME-1 units.
It's a church. The compression and EQ is really really good - the PA team's ability to use it less so... :(

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[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1484165478' post='3213275']
the PA team's ability to use it less so... :(
[/quote]

We resemble that remark!

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[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1484165478' post='3213275']
ahh GLD 80 I think it is and we have the ME-1 units.
It's a church. The compression and EQ is really really good - the PA team's ability to use it less so... :(
[/quote]
I have the GLD80 - no excuse for poor monitor mixes then!

The ME-1s are great little units too (alas I don't have any but have tried them - don't really lend themselves to wireless use) Edited by EBS_freak

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The problem is with digital desks is it is so easy to do drastic eq that on a physical control would be moving it towards the edge of its travel - digital it's harder to be subtle is you're not so expert in what you're doing - that's my theory anyway

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[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1484171268' post='3213360']

I have the GLD80 - no excuse for poor monitor mixes then!

The ME1s are great little units too (alas I don't have any but have tried them - don't really lend themselves to wireless use)
[/quote] we do our own mixes - the problem is it's post gain and eq on the board - so if the room eq needs much eq then it changes dramatically in my ears - ideally I would have a tiny bit more control over my sound

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[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1484171297' post='3213361']
The problem is with digital desks is it is so easy to do drastic eq that on a physical control would be moving it towards the edge of its travel - digital it's harder to be subtle is you're not so expert in what you're doing - that's my theory anyway
[/quote]
Drastic - I guess... the EQs are certainly a lot more powerful than traditional analogue desks in that they have sweepable frequency points and Q over the standard fixed settings normally found. So yes, more powerful... but more potential for poor decisions!

With the additional sweepable HPF points, you can get some incredibly good mud free mixes that just aren't possible without a load of outboard in the analogue world. I'm not sure why anybody would choose anything but a digital desk in a live environment in today's world.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1484171518' post='3213362']
we do our own mixes - the problem is it's post gain and eq on the board - so if the room eq needs much eq then it changes dramatically in my ears - ideally I would have a tiny bit more control over my sound
[/quote]
It sounds like your routing isn't right - off the top of my head, so forgive me if I am a little hazy, on your desk, hit the IO button on the top right. I think theres a tab called something like Mon or Monitor there on the screen that comes up. Hit that tab on the screen. The screen should show Direct Out for each channel. Ensure that everything is Direct out and corresponding to a channel (e.g Dir Out 1 is on Channel 1, Dir Out 2 is on channel 2) and ensure that you are in ME-1 mode, not Aviom mode. (I'm guessing you are in ME-1 mode already if you ME-1s are working).

Then push the processing button, again at the top right of the desk. Click the Routing tab on the screen and then the Direct Out tab. Push the select (SEL) button on the 1st channel strip for channel input 1. The screen should update showing the corresponding info for that channel.

At the bottom of that screen, I think you'll see a pop up bar (I think it's yellow) and it will say something like Direct Out Source, or Dir Out Src or something like that. If you press that, a little screen will appear with two boxes and a drop down. Ensure that the follow fader is not enabled. This means that your ME-1 is not influenced by the position of the fader for the front of house. The follow mute button configures whether muting the channel front of house should also mute the channel on the ME1. Have it pressed as you require. As for the drop down, choose the appropriate output for your needs - if you are complaining about the EQ, it sounds like you need to select a direct out point above the Post PEQ option.For example, if you chose the Post Preamp option, that should feed you the dry signal (before it hits the EQ processing) straight to your ME-1. I think there is a HPF direct out point... you may find that a good option to keep the mud out of your mix. You may need to experiment with these. I know there is a gating option - which can be great for keeping drums sounding great front of house - but may find a bit annoying in your in-ears.

Oh yeah, you'll need to repeat this configuration for every channel.

I suspect you are on follow fader/post delay at the moment... and hence why you are hearing the funky EQ and volume fluctuations with any move of the front of house faders.

To be honest, I prefer mixing off an aux and an iPad (I know the numbers are more limited that way due to you using output busses) than the ME-1 but there are some things you may want to consider depending upon how confident you are in configuring the desk and how many channels you have free. (This is applicable for both ME-1 and Aux mixing) - For a single high channel desk where a large proportion of the channels aren't being used, I will say have 24 channels for front of house and 24 channels for monitoring. You can digitally split the input from your AR2412 to a couple of channels - say input 1 goes to channel 1 and channel 25. What this means is that you can EQ say, a vocal, for front of house, on channel 1, and the EQ for your ME-1s on channel 25 - your direct outs on 25 can then be Post the EQ but still pre fader... but you have the advantage of hearing the processing in your monitor mix. What you are effectively doing now is running a front of house mixer and monitor mixer in one desk. I think I have talked about previously when talking about the inears mix that I recorded off my DL32R - exactly same concept.

It's all good fun but a bit complex if you haven't done it before and a bit of a minefield if you aren't familiar with configuring mixing desks.

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1484077331' post='3212524']and as normal its fairly hard to get the mix sounding balanced[/quote]
If you fix the above, I would wager you'll find it a lot easier to mix your own inears... because at the moment, any tweaks front of house is definitely going to mess up your mix!

Hope that your sound guys get used to the desk - it's got too much to offer not to make the most of it. Controlling via DCA is really powerful... and the fx engine is really strong. It's a great desk - although having said that, it looks like they have decided to EOL it given their new announcements for NAMM and the fact that they are keeping silent over any firmware updates to fix the outstanding bugs... grr... :(

Anyway, hope this helps to fix your ME-1 issues* and good luck!

*I know that church PA guys are usually very precious and don't let anybody near the "complex (complex because they don't understand) and expensive" equipment... so hopefully you can get somebody on side to help get your changes applied. Edited by EBS_freak

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[quote name='OmeDunk' timestamp='1484326418' post='3214765']
On their way to the cold and wet lowlands
[/quote]
Not too long from now then? Looking forward to hearing your appraisal of them and how they compare to what you are currently using as a benchmark.

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New toys - [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUasZpMINt8[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzEAn2y-5-g[/media]

Glorified headphone amp right? Edited by EBS_freak

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[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1483520924' post='3207768']
There's not really a lot of competition at that price point, especially when we are talking quad drive balanced armatures. There's the XBA40s if you can find them... otherwise you are stepping up to say the Westone WD40s. Should probably point out that the competition in balanced armature designs is very tight - there are only really Knowles and Sonion in the balanced armature manufacture game, so likelihood whatever you buy will be made from those, or a combination of those. What you are paying for is the sound signature (e.g. tuning and crossover design - that for most are actually passive and made up via tube dampening and tube length, only a few have electronic crossovers in place) and the casing. The UE900s are defo the bargains... and considering that they are from UE (who are certainly up there in terms of IEM front runners), they are not to be sniffed at despite them having been on the market for some time. There is a reason why they haven't been discontinued - they are great.

These have also been on my radar of late - [url="http://www.mi.com/en/headphonesprohd/"]http://www.mi.com/en/headphonesprohd/[/url] - only out since the end of 2016...

Dynamic in the lows so should give better response than a single BA (remember I always suggest at least a dual low when using balanced armatures because balanced armatures have less headroom) - [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Xiaomi-Pro-HD-Earphones-Triple-Driver-Dual-Dynamic-BA-Hybrid-UK-fast-postage-/222339603573?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368"]http://www.ebay.co.u...725.m3641.l6368[/url]

(Easiest place to source is probably eBay as they are not officially available outside of the US)

They are cheap enough to give them a whirl, right?
[/quote]


I'm reading this thread with interest as we're talking in my band about in-ears, and if we don't all do it I am definitely considering purchasing some gear to allow me to use in-ears... and this thread (and others) have been very useful. I'm still having 1001 questions but... getting there ;)

Anyway, I am not writing about all that... I'm writing about the Xiaomi earphones in the link above. I was interested in getting some that sounded half decent and I thought why not. So I got a pair of those.

First impression wasn't incredible. A lot of treble, so much so that I EQ'd it decreasing treble progressively above 4KHz. The bass wasn't particularly impressive either. It was there but it didn't have the definition I was hoping for.
HOWEVER!
I was really struggling with the actual buds. Poor fit in my ears. It's not the first time... I seem to have unusual ears or something. The Xiaomi come with 4 pairs of buds. None fit well. The least bad were the ones that came already installed. I find the rubber material too slippery, it just doesn't stay in my ear and if I shake my head they come loose. They also make my ears feel hot, tired, after half an hour or so... maybe because I try so hard to get them in place and stay there...
Very disappointing.
So I took the buds that came with my Sony earphones (they were around £40, I can't recall the model). They are the worst Sony earphones I've owned... but the buds are better for me, although still not ideal. I installed the Sony buds on the Xiaomi... woah! BIG difference.
The treble is no longer annoying and I reset the EQ flat. The bass... there's quite a bit of it, but the most important part is that it has a much more defined sound.
I was using a couple of Lettuce albums that I know well to assess the sound... funky, nice horns, keyboards, effects, wah guitars... I won't say they're the best earphones ever, but at around £35 including delivery I'm very happy with this. They feel reasonably well made although I wish for a more substantial cable, but it's still a LOT better than the Sony.

I guess it makes a big difference to use the right buds. The ones I am using now are ok, but I could get a better fit, so I'll investigate and see if I can find something that fits better.

I'm not sure how well they would work as for IEM, these buds don't block as much external noise as you'd want for that, but they're nice cheap earphones that sound probably better than most in the price range, and I'm glad I read this thread :)

Edit: they also don't leak as much sound out as I expected, pretty quiet outside your ears at the volumes I like, which is great Edited by mcnach

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