New speaker "playing in" period?

[4 Strings]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1354730983' post='1889760']
Most maple fingerboards are covered in laquer, which is a very hard surface wheras rosewood generally is not. A well respected Brighton luthier told me that it is usually maple fingerboards that get that 'clanky' sound that many who prefer them are after. But he said that if I had a rosewood board and laquered it I would also get pretty much the same experience. Which is probably why Rickenbackers sound that way, despite have a rosewood board, because they laquer them...
[/quote]

I would have to say not to believe all you hear

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1355008105' post='1893009']

Roger Sadowsky seems to believe that fingerboard wood may be more important to tone than even body wood - [url="http://btpub.boyd-printing.com/iphone/article.php?id=1236876&id_issue=135014&src=menu&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fbtpub.boyd-printing.com%2Fiphone%2F%3Fi%3D135014%26p%3D%26search_str%3D%26noframe%3D%26r%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.bassgearmag.com%252Fbgm%252FMagazine."]http://btpub.boyd-pr...m%252FMagazine.[/url]

He also seems to think maple is brighter than rosewood. [url="http://www.sadowsky.com/pop/roger_talks.html"]http://www.sadowsky....oger_talks.html[/url]
[/quote]My opinion is based on a having built basses and guitars with various body, neck and fingerboard materials too, and I quit the search when I got what was perfect for me.

[funkle]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1355011890' post='1893049']
My opinion is based on a having built basses and guitars with various body, neck and fingerboard materials too, and I quit the search when I got what was perfect for me.
[/quote]

Fair enough. Sensible way to do it.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1354628075' post='1888317']
Loudspeaker designers don't debate break-in amongst themselves, for the same reason. But pundits will jabber on forever.
[/quote]

Actually, they do. You’ll find qualified designers all over the internet trying to explain that speaker break-in is a myth perpetuated by sales and marketing departments. The science involved is so basic that it's in the Loudspeaker Cookbook, written incidentally by a qualified and respected designer, Vance Dickensen, also editor of the industry’s trade journal Voice Coil.

Vance Dickensen writes that [i]after break-in “enclosure requirements and performance are nearly identical[/i] since the Fs/Qts ratio stays virtually the same” and that, although there are measurable changes in driver parameters after break-in, [i]any changes in response will be inaudible[/i]. He backs this up with data, of course.

He also says, [i]“Do you need to ascribe a particular time period for "break-in"? No.[/i] Just plug it in and play it like you normally would.” Very sensible advice and a direct answer to this thread’s original question.

Floyd Toole thinks that speaker break-in is a myth too. Described by the Audio Critic as “arguably the world's leading authority on loudspeakers”, he was Head of Acoustical Engineering at Harman International Industries (JBL, Studer/Soundcraft, Crown, dbx, BSS, Lexicon, AKG, Revel) for 15 years and set up the Harman speaker testing labs, which are world renowned. He is an acknowledge expert on loudspeaker testing and psychoacoustics. I copied this short passage on the subject from his book: Sound Reproduction - Loudspeakers and Rooms.

“In parts of the audio industry, there is a belief that all components from wires to electronics to loudspeakers need to “break in.” Out of the box, it is assumed that they will not be performing at their best. Proponents vehemently deny that this process has anything to do with adaptation, writing extensively about changes in performance that they claim are easily audible in several aspects of device performance.

Yet, [i]the author is not aware of any controlled test in which any consequential audible differences were found, even in loudspeakers, where there would seem to be some opportunities for material changes[/i]. A few years ago, to satisfy a determined marketing person, the research group performed a test using samples of a loudspeaker that was claimed to benefit from “breaking in.” [i]Measurements before and after the recommended break-in showed no differences in frequency response[/i], except a very tiny change around 30–40 Hz in the one area where break-in effects could be expected: woofer compliance. [i]Careful listening tests revealed no audible differences. [/i]None of this was surprising to the engineering staff. It is not clear whether the marketing person was satisfied by the finding.”

By the way, this book gets a glowing recommendation from Siegfrid Linkwitz on his site, where he says, "It debunks much of the BS that seems to have permeated the audio industry and many of its customers.”

Now, guys, if we are going to contradict some of the most respected and erudite experts in the business, I suggest you respond to my previous requests for some [i]evidence [/i]to support the non-scientific, anecdotal assertions we have heard so far. Would that be too much too ask?

[redstriper]

Well said Stevie - I would like to add a little scientific research to the pot:
[url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=steve"]http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=steve[/url]

Steve.

[stevie]

[4 Strings]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1355163294' post='1894881']
Actually, they do. You’ll find qualified designers all over the internet trying to explain that speaker break-in is a myth perpetuated by sales and marketing departments...etc

Now, guys, if we are going to contradict some of the most respected and erudite experts in the business, I suggest you respond to my previous requests for some [i]evidence [/i]to support the non-scientific, anecdotal assertions we have heard so far. Would that be too much too ask?
[/quote]

I suppose you must be right, my speakers still sound as disappointing as they did when I first plugged them in, I mean the proof is there in your reading. I read about light coloured and/or glossy fingerboards sounding brighter too, so you must all accept that too. Unless you can prove otherwise.

[Phil Starr]

I don't think there can be any doubt that the compliance of the spider and the surround will change over the life of a loudspeaker and that this will change the Thiele/Small parameters. Without any data (sorry) to back this up I would guess that this would follow a decay curve with rapid changes at first slowing down as the speaker ages but never reaching a point of no further change. I've seen the fs/Qts/Vas argument though the only reference to this in my 4th edition of Dickason this is about manufacturing spread, not breaking in.

I've noticed speakers in the past appearing to improve in bass response when new, initially before I read anything about this effect so it was not affected by expectation. I think I have noticed it since but not in every speaker I have built so my observation is this may depend upon the materials used in the construction of particular speakers. I wasn't interested at the time and didn't take any measurements I just wanted to get on with listening tests.

The only reference to breaking in I can find in Dickason is "prior to testing, (for T/S parameters) all speakers should be 'broken in'." He goes on to say "resonant frequency can decrease by as much as 15% after 5 to 10hours" and recommends breaking in with moderate cone travel at 25Hz for 1 hour.

When I noticed these changes I would have been carrying out listening tests with particular (classical) recordings with a high level of bass in them and A/B testing with my reference speakers, Whether I would have noticed had I not been particularly looking for bass differences I can't say.

That's really the crucial question though, would you notice in normal circumstances at a gig and should you 'run in' your speakers before using them in anger? Well I wouldn't use any speaker at a gig I hadn't used for a while at home and to be honest once I've picked up the bass an hour goes quite quickly so i wouldn't really get too uptight about it.

I'd love to see any data anyone has though.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Phil Starr

[Mr. Foxen]

If wearing out exists, the wearing in has to exist, the only difference is whether you like the change in spec or not.

[gjones]

Is this one still going? It must be a record!

[R Baer]

I'm going to chime in here an say that without a doubt, the woofers in our cabs go through a definite break-in period. The low end will sound a little bigger and louder and more balanced with the mid driver after a few hours of playing. Almost everyone who uses our cabs will agree. We've even had a couple customers that bought cabs some time apart call to let me know there must be something wrong with the new cab, because it doesn't sound like the old cabinet. "I'm playing them side by side and the new cab sounds much brighter than the old cab. Did you change something?".

And it's not coincidence that users say the cabinets always sound better when they are broken-in. They were designed with broken-in drivers in the first place, so it goes to reason that a cab right out of the box doesn't sound as it was originally designed to sound. There's a very good reason why our engineers at Eminence don't test a driver until they have put it through their own break-in period. Here's some good information from the Eminence site, written by one of their head engineers, not the marketing guys!

[url="http://www.eminence.com/2011/06/speaker-break-in/"]http://www.eminence....eaker-break-in/[/url]

Edited December 11, 2012 by R Baer

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1355212660' post='1895331']
Is this one still going? It must be a record!
[/quote]If you ignore the replies from all those not actually in the loudspeaker business it's a lot shorter.

[redstriper]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1355240743' post='1895819']
If you ignore the replies from all those not actually in the loudspeaker business it's a lot shorter.
[/quote]


And remember the science:
[url="http://www.urbandictionary.com/names.php?names=Bill"]http://www.urbandictionary.com/names.php?names=Bill[/url]

[stevie]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1355184012' post='1895267']
I don't think there can be any doubt that the compliance of the spider and the surround will change over the life of a loudspeaker and that this will change the Thiele/Small parameters. Without any data (sorry) to back this up I would guess that this would follow a decay curve with rapid changes at first slowing down as the speaker ages but never reaching a point of no further change. I've seen the fs/Qts/Vas argument though the only reference to this in my 4th edition of Dickason this is about manufacturing spread, not breaking in.
[/quote]

Hi Phil,
Modern drivers are designed with materials that tend to be fairly stable. I don't think the parameters change very much over time, at least not on a good quality driver. I checked out a 25-year old JBL 12" not so long ago and it met the manufacturer's T.S. specs.

The Dickason I was referring to was the 7th edition. I'll post the whole section when I get time to type it out.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1355184012' post='1895267']
I'd love to see any data anyone has though.
[/quote]

I'll post Dickason's before/after break-in measurements later because they're in the relevant section in his book. Here are the measurements I took of an Eminence Kappalite 3012LF (fresh from its sealed box) last year. You can put them in your own modelling software if you wish or refer to the curve on the right. As you can see, the curves are indistinguishable.

Edited December 11, 2012 by stevie

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1355240743' post='1895819']
If you ignore the replies from all those not actually in the loudspeaker business it's a lot shorter.
[/quote]
Can't have mere bassists chiming in on a bass forum now, can we?

[Jack]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1355246387' post='1895903']
Can't have mere bassists chiming in on a bass forum now, can we?
[/quote]

What do bassists necessarily know about speaker mechanics?

[R Baer]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1355245441' post='1895886']
Hi Phil,
Modern drivers are designed with materials that tend to be fairly stable. I don't think the parameters change very much over time, at least not on a good quality driver.[/quote]

This seems to go against the information put out there by one of the largest speaker manufacturers in the world, most cabinet manufacturers and my own personal experience, but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions. [url="http://www.eminence.com/2011/06/speaker-break-in/"]http://www.eminence.com/2011/06/speaker-break-in/[/url]

[stevie]

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1355250158' post='1895968']
What do bassists necessarily know about speaker mechanics?
[/quote]
You'd be surprised how many speaker designers play bass. Have you heard of Laurie Fincham?

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1355240743' post='1895819']
If you ignore the replies from all those not actually in the loudspeaker business it's a lot shorter.
[/quote]

Yes, it's nice to see you guys with your big logos promoting your businesses on here.

[Jack]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1355253074' post='1896017']
You'd be surprised how many speaker designers play bass. Have you heard of Laurie Fincham?
[/quote]

Oh I fully expect that many speaker designers play bass. My point was that not many bassists are speaker designers.

[stevie]

What you seemed to be saying was that being a mere bassist makes your opinion less valid than those working in the "industry". That's what Bill Fitzmaurice seemed to be saying.

[stevie]

[quote name='R Baer' timestamp='1355252509' post='1896007']
This seems to go against the information put out there by one of the largest speaker manufacturers in the world, most cabinet manufacturers and my own personal experience, but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions. [url="http://www.eminence.com/2011/06/speaker-break-in/"]http://www.eminence....eaker-break-in/[/url]
[/quote]

That's the second time you've posted that link from the Eminence customer services tech. On this particular matter he says, "Subtle changes will continue throughout the life cycle of the speaker". Which is fair enough and doesn't contradict what I said. There are plenty of speakers from the 1970s still working fine today. There have been some unstable materials like undoped paper, foam and PVC surrounds, but by and large, I think you can expect a modern speaker to perform to specification for several decades. I'm sure that's the case with Baer speakers, isn't it?

Interesting that he strongly recommends [i]against [/i]using a test tone to break your speakers in. So who is one to believe if the so-called experts disagree?

[JTUK]

I think you can be a designer with a grasp of the science behind it...or whatever else, but that same guy can still have cloth ears. There is no messing with what god gave you in that regard...and then there is perception of what is a good tone anyway...
Being able to quote chapter and verse is one thing..and it helps impress some people on forums like this-hell, if you say the same thing long and loud enough, you'll probably get those same people to pipe up and re-enforce this view time and again...
and maybe chapter and verse is a good thing, in a way, or maybe not..but sound is very much subjective so those 'rules' don't always provide the difintive answer.

If any cab maker was to tell me what I am hearing.. they could have the short answer back...but surely no one is that arrogant, are they...

Edited December 11, 2012 by JTUK

[R Baer]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1355260793' post='1896178']
That's the second time you've posted that link from the Eminence customer services tech. On this particular matter he says, "Subtle changes will continue throughout the life cycle of the speaker". Which is fair enough and doesn't contradict what I said. There are plenty of speakers from the 1970s still working fine today. There have been some unstable materials like undoped paper, foam and PVC surrounds, but by and large, I think you can expect a modern speaker to perform to specification for several decades. I'm sure that's the case with Baer speakers, isn't it?

Interesting that he strongly recommends [i]against [/i]using a test tone to break your speakers in. So who is one to believe if the so-called experts disagree?
[/quote]

Tony is not a customer service tech. He is one of the head engineers at Eminence and one of the guys actually designing their drivers. Yes, the drivers should last for many, many years. What Tony is saying in that article is that the driver is constantly changing due to changes in the driver materials from years of playing. Sure, most of these long term changes are beyond anyone's ability to notice over time, but the changes in the driver after the first few hours are the most noticeable. Honestly, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. The OP asked about driver break-in and I'm answering based on my own my own experience with our own drivers. I'm not an engineer myself, but I've been playing bass for over 30 years and consider myself to have a pretty good set of ears. I can say that without a doubt, the sound of our cabs changes after a few hours of playing. It's clearly audible. I have absolutely nothing to gain by telling my customers that the cabs go through a break-in period, if that wasn't actually the case. Very simply, the surround and spider materials are very stiff when they are first made. After a few hours that cloth will become more flexible and most players will notice a slight increase in the low end volume below about 100Hz compared to the cab fresh out of the box.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Jack' timestamp='1355250158' post='1895968']
What do bassists necessarily know about speaker mechanics?
[/quote]

Naff all, but we hear them everyday.