The Other Notes....? Moving away from Root and 5th

[WillEdwards]

As bass players we are often required to play the root and 5th to help mark the chord.

This is all well and good, and just playing root or just root and 5th can sound awesome, but I find myself wanting to play other notes as well. I think it is the wish of many bass players to stand out more in the band by pulling out a great bass line, or maybe we should just be the unsung heroes holding it all together in the background like the other post in BC suggests.

You can only go so far with 'other' notes with there being only 12 tones, but could you guys recommend some really cool degrees of the scale that you can play to make a bass line sound great? I have experimented a bit and found that for example going root, minor 3rd, 4th sounds good but it's pretty basic and just stepping up the scale. There are definitely more exciting note progressions....

I realise that what you are 'allowed' to play depends on what the keyboard/guitar is playing on top but for this post assume that you are just playing a solo bass line with a drummer, or if you could recommend notes that sound great against a certain chord. For sake of argument playing the 7th in a dominant 7th leading to the root of the tonic chord, something like that.

I dunno....! Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Cheers.

[lowdowner]

God, what a huge question.

It depends (helpful huh?)

Often the approach notes (flattened 7ths for maj7 or 7th for maj chords) just at the end of the bar before the root works, and the 2nd sometimes works well on 2nd beat if it's syncopated a bit (push it a semi-quaver off the second beat?)... you can often walk up an octave of major (or minor if that's the current bar chord) pentatonic on the 8 quavers of a 4/4 bar, or even every second except for the 8th quaver when you can approach the root from a tone below...

Gawd... experiment with it a bit I guess?

[xilddx]

The only way to do this is to educate, and use, your ears.

No amount of theory will help you.

[lowdowner]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1348516369' post='1814718']
The only way to do this is to educate, and use, your ears.

No amount of theory will help you.
[/quote]

I agree with this 99%, but sometimes theory can give you hints and ideas that you might not have found for a *long* time - a classic example is the 'blue note' in a blues scale which you probably wouldn't find through experimenting for a long time, but the theory guides you what to experiment with.

A *little* theory is a good thing I think.

[3below]

There are other notes? I am worried, what have I been missing....

[lowdowner]

[quote name='3below' timestamp='1348517228' post='1814737']
There are other notes? I am worried, what have I been missing....
[/quote]

Secret, special, notes that are only known to the few...
You have to join 'the club' before you're told where they are.

[xilddx]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1348516671' post='1814724']
I agree with this 99%, but sometimes theory can give you hints and ideas that you might not have found for a *long* time - a classic example is the 'blue note' in a blues scale which you probably wouldn't find through experimenting for a long time, but the theory guides you what to experiment with.

A *little* theory is a good thing I think.
[/quote]
That's where the 'educating' of your ears comes in to play. You need to HEAR that note, not just play it because you are aware it fits in a certain place. You have to learn how to hear tension and resolution in small and longer passages and how it contributes to the whole.

The use of melodic and harmonic devices and embellishments MUST be musical, not theoretical. But I agree that exploring theory can most certainly open ones ears.

Edited September 24, 2012 by silddx

[xilddx]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1348517347' post='1814740']
Secret, special, notes that are only known to the few...
You have to join 'the club' before you're told where they are.
[/quote]

[hollywoodrox]

I like mixing root 5th octave with minor 3rd and minor 5th for diminished metal type sounds

[Fat Rich]

The 6th is worth a look.

[xilddx]

To the OP, sling on a track you're writing a bass line for, and sing along, in your head preferably, melodic dynamic bass lines will come with practice.

[paul_5]

[quote name='lowdowner' timestamp='1348517347' post='1814740']


Secret, special, notes that are only known to the few...
You have to join 'the club' before you're told where they are.
[/quote]

You know the first rule of "secret special note club" - you do not talk about "secret special note club"....

[Les]

[quote name='WillEdwards' timestamp='1348514739' post='1814672']
but I find myself wanting to play other notes as well..
[/quote]

Blasphemy

[lojo]

I played in a jazz band as the only non reader, everyone else could sight read, I tried alot of notes in walking pattens once, then I knew not to use that one again in that part of that song

I know its far from helpful

[TheGreek]

I love minor 10ths (the octave of a 3rd) and major 11ths combined with the root..

[risingson]

To the OP. This is meant with the greatest of respect, as you're obviously keen to learn and that is a wonderful thing! But there is something quite clinical in the way you're discussing expanding on your bass lines. The notes on your fretboard should fit in your head and feel as natural as speaking and in the meantime, maybe it's worth paying attention to bass players you like who are able to string notes together in a way that directly appeals to you. It's less about learning what intervals work best, more to do with you perhaps improving your ear.

There will be a serious lack of bass players that will look at creating their bass lines as theoretically as the way you describe. The theory of music should be leant and referenced when necessary, but a good ear is invaluable and that's what you'd need to work on. Just my 2p.

[xgsjx]

Root 5th all the way. Dont stray & play Country!

Wait a min.... I play a little Country & follow the vocal line (but with different notes). Have you thought about playing random notes from the scale?

http://soundcloud.com/xgsjx/stars-guitars

[Doddy]

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1348516369' post='1814718']
The only way to do this is to educate, and use, your ears. No amount of theory will help you.
[/quote]
Yes and no.
Using your ears to identify intervals and chords is vital,but you will also gain a hell of a lot more
if you combine it with the theory. It's not an either/or thing.
If someone hands you a basic chord chart,or even just tells you the chords,then knowing what notes spell
out a C7 chord is going to make life a lot easier. Lojo mentioned playing a jazz gig and trying out lots of notes
and then not playing the ones that didn't work next time. This kind of trial and error approach,for me,is why
you practice and study.It's fine to experiment with different things at times,as long as you know that you can fall
back on the chord tones. Of course you need to be able to hear what notes are clashing and adjust, but often
by the time you hear that what you played was wrong,it's too late-do this enough times and you don't get rehired.
A good solid grounding in chord tones can and will make a big difference to your playing,and not in the negative
way that some people seem to imply.

[BassTractor]

Being black, I may only play Roots notes myself, but YCMV etc.

Seriously though, I too think you may attack this from the wrong side. Also, a good answer would fill many books.
Like Silddx said, it comes down to your ears experiencing tension and relaxation and you do this by ear. Listen to others who play the same song or in the same style, experiment with those 10 other notes and try to remember what you liked.

Start with repeating stuff like each of the following lines, and the rest will come in time. You can easily try other rhythms and notes. Play a lot!
I'm limiting the rhythmic scope to just one type, just to get you going.

1---5---5---5-6- and eventually make this a little sharper by playing the 6 earlier:

1---5---5---56--

5-4-5-4-5-4-56--

1-3-3-1-3-1-34--

5-1-1-5-5-1-71--


Good ear!

best,
bert

Edited September 24, 2012 by BassTractor

[Lord Sausage]

They're all right in using your ear, and combining it with theory etc. But there is no hard and fast right way of doing things, whatever works best. Plus don't let people tell you the right and wrong way of doing things. All players have picked up things off other players either by listening or seeing and listening. Also this is a forum where better to ask for help.
With regard to the 'clinical' thing. It may be, may not be, but by trying different things that you haven't before over time it will become part of your natural ear and ability etc.

Anyway here is a couple of simple ones of the top of my head that i like and were early ones that i picked up

Root,5, octave, ninth, octave
root, 5, combination of 7, octave, ninth

[SteveK]

Will, I find your post a little perplexing. On the one hand, you sound like your fairly new to music... and on the other hand, with phrases like:
[quote]playing the 7th in a dominant 7th leading to the root of the tonic chord, something like that.[/quote]
makes me think you have at least a little theory under your belt.
Asking for suggestions of 'cool degrees of the scale' is pointless. Basically you're asking for a short-cut to more creative bass lines, but it's a short-cut that's waaaay too short.
OK you have some suggestions... now what? Are going to stick a minor 10th in at every opportunity? Or perhaps a 6th? Or maybe a minor 5th ? That's really not the way to good creative playing.
There's plenty of good stuff on BC in the Theory and technique sections. Get stuck in there... that will hold you in much better stead.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1348521370' post='1814827']
Yes and no.
Using your ears to identify intervals and chords is vital,but you will also gain a hell of a lot more
if you combine it with the theory. It's not an either/or thing.
If someone hands you a basic chord chart,or even just tells you the chords,then knowing what notes spell
out a C7 chord is going to make life a lot easier. Lojo mentioned playing a jazz gig and trying out lots of notes
and then not playing the ones that didn't work next time. This kind of trial and error approach,for me,is why
you practice and study.It's fine to experiment with different things at times,as long as you know that you can fall
back on the chord tones. Of course you need to be able to hear what notes are clashing and adjust, but often
by the time you hear that what you played was wrong,it's too late-do this enough times and you don't get rehired.
A good solid grounding in chord tones can and will make a big difference to your playing,and not in the negative
way that some people seem to imply.
[/quote]

You are approaching it from a chart reading sessionista's point of view though mate.

To really do this properly, you have to be expressing yourself at the speed of thought. To do that you have to use you ears and experience. Your fingers need to have eyes, to quote Steve Vai. This comes with practice and experience. Knowing what intervals sound like is critical, having an imagination to use them is even more so. You don't need to give these intervals names if you don't want to, but you DO need to know what they sound like. You also need a vocabulary of phrases that you like (liking what you play is also critical if you want to play with any expression). You should be able to sing these in your head and play them without thinking as you adapt them to musical situations. I am also of the mind that deciding what notes you LEAVE OUT is a better approach to what notes you PUT IN

It really is all about educating your ears and playing what you LIKE hearing. You have to develop your musical imagination. Of course a session player needs to be able to play almost anything, but I don't think that's where the OP is coming from.

Edited September 24, 2012 by silddx

[risingson]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1348521532' post='1814835']
With regard to the 'clinical' thing. It may be, may not be, but by trying different things that you haven't before over time it will become part of your natural ear and ability etc.
[/quote]

It wasn't my intention to sound condescending with my comment, although it probably did come across as such. But I'll never be convinced by bass parts being pieced together so methodically, with notable exceptions of written bass parts for example being brought to life by the quality and idiosyncrasies of the bass player. Theory is very important, interval training and a strong understanding of chordal tones is everything but it should always compliment a musical ear.

[lowdown]

[quote name='hollywoodrox' timestamp='1348517561' post='1814744']
minor 5th for diminished metal type sounds
[/quote]

Is that a rusty 5th?

Ears and taste [along with theory,or some] is the name of the game.
Practise singing along with Basslines, or any instrument lines for that matter,
and start to take in intervals and chord sounds. Melodic or lyrical Instinct will eventually kick in telling
you what's musical and what's just your fingers speaking in the name of showing off.


Garry

Edited September 24, 2012 by lowdown

[WillEdwards]

Thanks everyone for the inputs.

I realise that my original post did sound clinical but I just wanted to get a bit of advice from guys who I am sure have run into a similar problem at some point and seeing what other players like to incorporate into their music.

So far I have been developing my bass lines by ear and have found some notes that I like the sound of and others that I don't. But I am wanting to support this ear training with some theory so that I become more aware of what I am playing and how it relates to the rest of the music. So I agree with those who said that you need a well trained ear but also a grounding in the theory.

At the level I am at I am putting my fingers down where I think there will be a nice sounding note and it works most of the time and sometimes not. I want to get to a level where I can play what is in my head but also know (through theory) how that relates to the music. I think this can also give you a reference point that this particular note sounds good in the context. I think just playing by ear has a slight limitation of making the player think 'ok it will sound good if I play a not 6 frets up from where I am but on the G string' without actually knowing what note it is or how that relates to the music. Your ear can tell you that then your brain with the theory can say 'I am about to play the 3rd of the chord'. Basing what you play on a bit of theory doesn't necessarily mean that what you play is clinical. I think the ability to use ear and theory eventually merges into one with experience but in the beginning stages it is useful to use both.