Vigier Passion and Arpege - what's the difference?

[lapolpora]

I'd be grateful if someone can tell me the difference between the Vigier Passion and Arpege - apart from pickup placement of course. Are they very different instruments - tonally and playability?

Also is there a reason why some (particularly the older ones) seem reasonably priced while others of the same model are eye wateringly expensive (the newer ones). Did they change dramatically through the 80s, 90s and basses of today?

Thanks for any help. It's not an easy bass to get to try out!

Derrick

[E sharp]

I know a bit , but I'm not even going to try - Ped's your man for this .

He knows all the subtle differences in the different 'marks' , ie Passion 1 , Passion 11 , Passion 111 . There are also differences within those 'marks' aswell .

Give it a day or two , and all will be revealed , or maybe try and PM him .

Paul .

[Lfalex v1.1]

(I own a Passion 5 s3)
Main differences;
Pick up placement and (some series) eq systems.
They're all pretty damn good for construction/tone/playability.
The passion has its pick ups approximately where a warwick thumb with two close mounted units would.
The Arpege is more like a jazz.
Afaik the pick ups are the same in any two arpege/passion from the same era. The pick ups (almost always benedetti) have changed over time.
Eq: can't speak for series 1, but 2 & 3 passions had a quasi parametric equal, whilst the arpege had a rotary (9 position?) selector.
S 4 are the current ones. I know the passion has one eq per pick up, BMT, methinks. The Arpege may well have the same. Glockenlang sounds right to me.
The series 1,2&3 of both are neck thru. s4 are bolt on. s1 have a sliver of metal beneath the fretboard. s2 are graphite neck thru. S3 are wooden neck thru with the 10/90 graphite/wood mix. S4 are 10/90 bolt on.

That's a quick potted history done on my phone!
In general, there seem to be more passions than arpeges....

[Lfalex v1.1]

As for price, the s1 are kind of clunky looking and not very trendy.also, they're oldest, and may have mojo/damage and are likely cheapest. The s2 are nothing short of awesome... But not easy to come by, therefore more expensive. s3 are a different kind of awesome. More woody and slightly warmer sounding than s2. Also costly, though more numerous than s2.
s4 are expensive new. Haven't seen any s/h!
If money is no object, you can choose your preference from neck thru or bolt-on, more graphite or less....

[ped]

Hi guys!!

Well, I know a little.. I've had three in total and played a few more. You're right; it's not an easy bass to try out, which is a real shame. Bass Direct have some Series 4 models but if you're looking for some older ones it's very difficult to get your hands on one!!

OK so...

Series
Series 1. Wood neck and body, with brass laminate under the fingerboard. There are some even earlier ones with no laminate but very few indeed. The laminate acts as a neck stiffening device and apparently was massively successful. The hardest part was bonding the wood to the brass, but once it was figured out it worked well.

Series 2. All carbon neck thru. Very straight neck, little to no neck relief. No truss rod. Around 1984 onwards.

Series 3. 10/90 neck (10% carbon, two T shaped rods of very dense carbon with little resin, 90% maple). As rigid as the full carbon neck but with a more traditional sound and a 'textbook' amount of neck relief. Super stable and again, no truss rod. I think these were introduced in 1989.

Series 4. Introduced most recently (2008). A 10/90 neck but a bolt on design. Different electronics and new finishes. The basses are easier to make (apparently the old rigs for making the neck thru's were getting too old and needed replacement). The basses are cheaper when new than the other basses due to this. The necks are just as stable and the sound is largely the same, some say more punchy. Ergonomically they are preferred by some people.

Electronics
This has changed over time and it's difficult to pinpoint what happened when. Essentially, early basses have two single coil Benedetti pickups and a pre of some sort, ranging from 3eq to passive arrangements with tone controls on the rear pickup only! More recently, Vigier use Delano pickups with an excellent Glockenklang pre-amp with a 3 band EQ.

If I'm honest I think the electronics are the weakness in the early designs - the pickups could be quite noisy and they weren't especially powerful. However in the right environment they sounded superb.

The most recent system is extremely tidy and sounds fantastic, so it's an improvement. I had Benedetti pickups in my fretless which I mated to an East U-Retro pre which improved it no end and really let the pickups sing. My fretted 5 was all standard and my fretted 4 1988 series II is a real frankenbass with Basstec pickups and a Marleaux pre-amp and a GK system.

Passion/Arpege
Quite different beasts. Both share similar construction but the electronics vary in that the Arpege has more traditional spacing similar to a Jazz Bass and the Passion has both very near the bridge. The Arpege has seen a great deal of experimentation in the electronics department, probably due to the extra flexibility offered by the pickup placement. Features like a ROM memory unit for saving presets were introduced at different times.

Ergonomically they are very similar and the necks identical. The Arpege has a slightly different body shape which I find feels basically the same in practice. Nice and thin, too.

Conclusions
I honestly don't think you'll find a better bass than a Series 2 Passion/Arpege; the neck/body combination is just magical - resonant soft body wood with a rigid, flat and tonally rich neck - Kiwi described mine as a 'velvet brick'. The sound is surprisingly flexible and also quite individual. That said, I think you'll want to experiment with different electronics and/or pickups. Mind you, that's like buying a Rolls and changing the tyres.

Depending on your style you might prefer a particular type of bass (for example I like super low silky action so love the 'flat' series 2) and the pickup placement is up to you.

I hope this helps a bit. Price-wise I think you will find the series 4 basses quite expensive new and used as they are relatively recent, made in very small numbers and very different in manufacture than anything else out there. You can pick up earlier basses more cheaply sometimes but you might find them in varying condition. Like I say though, the basic 'chassis' of the bass is where it's at. I wouldn't worry about finding a mint one, as most have been played as intended by those lucky enough to have tried one.

Let us know if you have a try.

Cheers
ped

EDIT: Do'h, beaten to it!

[E sharp]

The boss has spoken - told ya , all you need in one post

[lapolpora]

Everyone - thanks so much for all of this. And Ped - some terrific info. What an amazing response - ought to be a sticky

This is all far more complex than first thought. I'll have to have a good think about this - and save for a long, long time.....

Thanks all again.

Derrick

[thodrik]

I can't really improve on what has been said. If you save and get one, Arpege, Passion or even the Excess, you will not regret it.

iGuitar have a review of the two newer models. http://licklibrary.ceros.com/iguitarmag/slash-iguitar-slash-magazine-slash-2012-issue-1/issue11/page/1

It seems that the new Passions have a bass, middle treble while the Arpege's have bass, middle and treble for each pickup.

I managed to get my Arpege series IV on here for a great price, so you can find them, just not as readily as Fenders.

[ped]

Everyone - thanks so much for all of this. And Ped - some terrific info. What an amazing response - ought to be a sticky

This is all far more complex than first thought. I'll have to have a good think about this - and save for a long, long time.....

Thanks all again.

Derrick

Glad to be of service. You might be surprised what you can find on the used market. I paid £500 for my series 2 'shell' before adding the electronics. Check out French bass forum 'onlybass' as sometimes they come up for sale, and here of course.

Cheers

[ped]

Hmm I have some pictures somewhere showing some views of the different types of bass, I'll see if I can find some.

I also hope to visit Vigier for the BC blog at some point, so I may be able to tell you more about the story and hopefully take some 'behind the scenes' pictures.

[E sharp]

There's a lovely red Passion III for sale on here for £800 that would be joining my series II and series IV if I hadn't lost my job!
I'll probably be taking mine to the S E Bass Bash so if you can get there you can at least try a couple of Passions. I recall that the Arpege that I tried felt very similar anyway but has more knobs on it!

That is a tasty Passion 3 , I agree .

Sorry to hear about your job Dave .

And your series II is lovely mate - tried it at the last but one East Anglian bash , and spent most of the day gravitating back to it for a noodle . When I get around to selling some gear , I'm gonna have to get me a nice Passion II

[lapolpora]

There's a lovely red Passion III for sale on here for £800 that would be joining my series II and series IV if I hadn't lost my job!
I'll probably be taking mine to the S E Bass Bash so if you can get there you can at least try a couple of Passions. I recall that the Arpege that I tried felt very similar anyway but has more knobs on it!

Thanks. I'll look out for the Bass Bash. Hopefully I can make it along. And yes that Passion III is lusty

[themoo]

Hello hello (Ped particularly)

I've just managed to get myself an old Arpege. I had one many many years ago and now Dr. Bass won't give it back (grrrrrrrrr)

Anyway, thanks to your info posted on this thread I've discovered that my bass is a Series 1 and very old. It's s/n #006. Any idea when that might have been made. It's an absolute stunner so I'm chuffed to bits.

[Chris2112]

The Arpege also has the cooler name.

[ped]

Woah that's stunning. Where did you find it?

It was made on March 15th, 1986. The serial # database is here http://78.41.237.59/sites/medias/pdf/12.pdf

So what can you tell us about the neck on the bass, is it carbon or the earlier brass laminate type?

I bet you'll be very happy with that - the second best bass I have ever played is Dr. Bass' blueburst Arpege!

On the whole Vigier front I'm working with a kind BC member to have my 'up' and 'down' Vbass patch buttons installed neatly onto the front of my bass, watch this space!

Yeah I think Arpege sounds cooler than Passion, I guess it also has a slightly more bass related meaning, too.

[themoo]

Woah that's stunning. Where did you find it? It was made on March 15th, 1986. The serial # database is here http://78.41.237.59/...dias/pdf/12.pdf So what can you tell us about the neck on the bass, is it carbon or the earlier brass laminate type? I bet you'll be very happy with that - the second best bass I have ever played is Dr. Bass' blueburst Arpege! On the whole Vigier front I'm working with a kind BC member to have my 'up' and 'down' Vbass patch buttons installed neatly onto the front of my bass, watch this space! Yeah I think Arpege sounds cooler than Passion, I guess it also has a slightly more bass related meaning, too.

Thanks Ped. You'll never guess where I got it!!! I search regularly for early Aprege basses as they're rarer than rocking horse poo and then I found this one on the CashConverters website!

I paid <drum roll> £600. It's in amazingly good condition. It was a fretless so I gave it to Alex at the Gallery and they did a stunning job of fretting it and cleaning up the electronics. It sounds and plays amazing!

I think this bass is not 1986 as you've said (and as I also initially thought) because it is a pre graphite Series 1. These basses aren't listed on the Vigier site. Someone said they thought it was 1980. If it's the sixth one made then it would be year one (maybe year 2... '81)! I'm more than happy to be proven wrong though

I'm a very very happy boy! Now I just need to get my old blue one back from Dr. Bass!

Sorry almost forgot, it has the metal laminate in the neck. Can't put it down, it's puuuurdy!

[ped]

Thanks Ped. You'll never guess where I got it!!! I search regularly for early Aprege basses as they're rarer than rocking horse poo and then I found this one on the CashConverters website!

I paid <drum roll> £600. It's in amazingly good condition. It was a fretless so I gave it to Alex at the Gallery and they did a stunning job of fretting it and cleaning up the electronics. It sounds and plays amazing!

I think this bass is not 1986 as you've said (and as I also initially thought) because it is a pre graphite Series 1. These basses aren't listed on the Vigier site. Someone said they thought it was 1980. If it's the sixth one made then it would be year one (maybe year 2... '81)! I'm more than happy to be proven wrong though

I'm a very very happy boy! Now I just need to get my old blue one back from Dr. Bass!

Sorry almost forgot, it has the metal laminate in the neck. Can't put it down, it's puuuurdy!

Ah of course, that'll teach me to look things up whilst I should be working. I'll see if Patrice Vigier can shed any light on the exact date, then. I've never had a metal laminate model, I bet they have a sound all of their own.

Funnily enough I have seen an Arpege at CrackConverters before, though I think it was snapped up quickly. You struck gold, there - and what an excellent price. Enjoy it and remember, French = best!

ped

[themoo]

Ah of course, that'll teach me to look things up whilst I should be working. I'll see if Patrice Vigier can shed any light on the exact date, then. I've never had a metal laminate model, I bet they have a sound all of their own.

Funnily enough I have seen an Arpege at CrackConverters before, though I think it was snapped up quickly. You struck gold, there - and what an excellent price. Enjoy it and remember, French = best!

ped

hahaha crapconverters!!!

I've always raved about my old blue one and I think certain people were getting a bit bored of hearing it. However, having played this one now, they are totally hooked!

<qoute> "the sounds are f***ing amazing!"

Superb pieces of engineering excellence!

Well done Le French

Whatever info you can find out will be greatly appreciated, thank you Ped!

[ped]

Great pics... it looks like it's brand new!

[themoo]

The brilliant photographer is my buddy Todd. He's here in London and LOVES basses if anyone wants some nice pictures.

So, just heard from the man himself. Patrice has identified the bass as an early Series 1 with the metal strip under the fretboard. He thinks it's a 1982 bass!

Lovely Jubbley.

Thanks for all your help Ped!

[ped]

The brilliant photographer is my buddy Todd. He's here in London and LOVES basses if anyone wants some nice pictures.

So, just heard from the man himself. Patrice has identified the bass as an early Series 1 with the metal strip under the fretboard. He thinks it's a 1982 bass!

Lovely Jubbley.

Thanks for all your help Ped!

Ah excellent!! There's a Vigier porn thread somewhere so you can add your pics.

[themoo]

yum yum

Edited October 12, 2012 by themoo

[Hitra]

Hi - look what I found 🙂 Series II. I can send you a PDF copy.

[Hitra]

And here is my basses; Arpege Series II sept. '86.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Hitra

[itu]

Sir, a copy of that pdf to me, please! Nice pair of dark ladies, by the way. (can almost hear Cher singing that song in the background)

 

I would like to add, that Passion and Arpege were available with three preamps (and few versions of them) during series II time, at least:

- ROM module preamp (Passion): volume and several presets with a rotating switch. Recognizable from two dots (the preamp attachment to the top) between pot hats. Few modules available.

- semiparametric: the most common unit. Arpege has one more pot (bass, I think).

- Nautilus (Arpege): the very rare and strange preamp with memory and display among others. Has approx. 251 pots and switches, or so.

Quite some data can be found from the net, but these are the basics.