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Musicman20

What's the big problem with 4x10s?!

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It's a bit tiresome reading lots of threads suggesting everything has a scientific solution, it doesn't . As humans we enjoy flaws in things, I prefer KT Tunstall's voice live before its been overly cleaned up for example. You can use the techy stuff to prove what is happening and why but not to give a water tight solution or definitive spec for a speaker that everyone will like.

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[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1343851531' post='1756420']
It should have ended at post #3. That's when the answer to the original question was given, most of what has been posted since has been silly catterwallering. Little wonder Alex seldom comes here any more. If one doesn't want the opinion of an expert in the field one should not ask the question to begin with. Unless they be trolling, of course.
[/quote]

Trolling only exists on Talkbass. I won't be caught into another daft argument over this, I was only stating my use of a fairly mid priced Ashdown cab that I don't own. It sounded great. I've just heard a recording that we did on digital camera and the bass sounds like me, magically enough. End of ;)

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[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1343852029' post='1756433']
Weirdly enough I know someone who did that to an Orange 4x12, back when they were considered undesirable old [email protected]!
[/quote]

Are you saying that's changed? :yarr:

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[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1343853281' post='1756456']


Are you saying that's changed? :yarr:
[/quote]

I was going to make a bonfire night joke but decided to resist due to the thread being quite tense as it was, your joke was better anyway. :lol:

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[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1343853467' post='1756462']
I was going to make a bonfire night joke but decided to resist due to the thread being quite tense as it was, your joke was better anyway. :lol:
[/quote]

Cheers :)

I think one should always keep a sense of humour regardless of the situation. Or does that make me a bit twisted? :unsure:

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[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1343852348' post='1756444']
It's a bit tiresome reading lots of threads suggesting everything has a scientific solution, it doesn't . As humans we enjoy flaws in things, I prefer KT Tunstall's voice live before its been overly cleaned up for example. You can use the techy stuff to prove what is happening and why but not to give a water tight solution or definitive spec for a speaker that everyone will like.
[/quote]

But......but........but.............surely................ you're not saying fanned frets aren't the best thing ever................are you? :huh:

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In summary, the scientific/techy reason given against the 4x10 is the relatively poor dispersion for that particular alignment of speakers, which would defeat the object of having speakers which give better dispersion than a 15, for example, in one box. One of the potential scientific/techy suggestion would be to put those same speakers in a vertical alignment to maintain the core "sound" of the cabinet whilst improving the dispersion, or to use two vertically stacked 2x10's. Same tone/sound, but better dispersion.

That [i]roughly[/i] answers the original question, from a certain point of view, though this has been written on more than one of the previous 9 pages by people with more knowledge than I possess. It doesn't mean you aren't allowed to like 4x10's, it doesn't make you a bad person or a worse player. Personally, I'm far more impressed with my 2x15 vertical arrangement in "new style scientific/techy cabs" than I am with the 4x10, 1x15, 4x8, and other 1x15 "good old style" cabs I had previously.

All that has been said all the way through it from the scientific/techy side of things is that by using cleverer cabinet design you can build a cabinet that provides you with a more consistent sound across the stage and around the room. That is the crux of it, and that is [i]one[/i] of the answers to the original question, is it not?

My answer to the original question is that I have found, through my experiences, that without angling a 4x10 or putting it on top of another cab, most of the sound is hitting my knees and the faces of the audience rather than my ears. If I need backline for monitoring only (probably 90% of my gigs) then I would be better off with either a taller cab or would need something else to put my cab on top of to make it more useful as a monitor.

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Would tipping the cab up, so that it was in a more diamond style configuration, so one speaker above another and then one either side at middle height, help? I imagine that if it's front ported you'd have to have the cab upside down.

Hopefully that description makes sense. Even if the idea doesn't.

Edited by KingBollock

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343839229' post='1756145']
If its crap sound where I am, its crap sound, even if the bassist thinks it sounds fine where he is. Might be because he likes crap sound, might be because it sounds good where he is. I don't make automatic assumptions, but I do know some things to be fact, and use them as reference points to figure out where a problem is.

Also for Dood, 'a room' won't cut it because room effects are part of it. But polar response is easy enough to demonstrate with a sine and being outside with no nearby walls with you cab. Or by being in a band with a guitarist who has a 4x12 and eqs without their head in front of the speaker, and if you've been there are tried to explain the problem to them, you know how those of us trying to explain to people in this thread feel.
[/quote]

Agreed, crap sound is crap if it sounds crap to the listener, elsewhere in the room it might be good sound. Even the most ideally designed cab based on the most advanced physics could still suffer that fate depending on the room it's in.

The fact you say that "'a room' won't cut it" kinda sums up what I've been trying to say. If we can't test it without breaking out scientific equipment and using sine waves in a specific environment that it's very unlikely anyone will ever play in, it won't be a huge factor on the sound compared to the other things going on. I don't think we disagree on the science, I can appreciate what you, Bill and Alex are saying and I have no reason to doubt you, we just disagree on the importance and impact of it. :) I'm happy to agree to disagree on that, the world would be a boring place if everyone had the same tastes in amps.

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[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' timestamp='1343861119' post='1756650']
Agreed, crap sound is crap if it sounds crap to the listener, elsewhere in the room it might be good sound. Even the most ideally designed cab based on the most advanced physics could still suffer that fate depending on the room it's in.

The fact you say that "'a room' won't cut it" kinda sums up what I've been trying to say. If we can't test it without breaking out scientific equipment and using sine waves in a specific environment that it's very unlikely anyone will ever play in, it won't be a huge factor on the sound compared to the other things going on. I don't think we disagree on the science, I can appreciate what you, Bill and Alex are saying and I have no reason to doubt you, we just disagree on the importance and impact of it. :) I'm happy to agree to disagree on that, the world would be a boring place if everyone had the same tastes in amps.
[/quote]

That thing you do when you do science in school where you eliminate variables: going for a cab with good dispersion is doing that, pretty rare circumstances that other problems out of your control will fix a dispersion issue with the cab, so you are nearly always going to be better off with a cab without that issue to start with, leaving you free to concentrate on the other issues. Even on a cab with an issue, understanding its characteristics means you can work with it and a bad room, rearranging all the stuff in a weird room at the local gig pub yielded pretty good results, and minimal humping cabs about to find out because we knew roughly how it should work. Then one super smart guy in another band decided he knew better and faced a 4x12 at himself an directly at the wall behind him, rendering himself inaudible aside from his octaver glitching.

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[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1343839223' post='1756144']


Will slide-rules & measuring tapes be provided alongside the gaffer tape and sticky buns?
[/quote]

Going wildly off topic, on the way home from rehearsal this evening I stopped off to do some shopping and spotted these really tasty sticky iced buns. I've not bought one for years and years. Childhood even. Then I read this! It's a sign!!! Ermmm.. Of something... Or other,...

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[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343861713' post='1756669']


Going wildly off topic, on the way home from rehearsal this evening I stopped off to do some shopping and spotted these really tasty sticky iced buns. I've not bought one for years and years. Childhood even. Then I read this! It's a sign!!! Ermmm.. Of something... Or other,...
[/quote]

I had an iced bun today!

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYdej8v3QoE&feature=related

For when it's evident that the room and your cab don't see eye to eye...

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1343861699' post='1756667']
That thing you do when you do science in school where you eliminate variables: going for a cab with good dispersion is doing that, pretty rare circumstances that other problems out of your control will fix a dispersion issue with the cab, so you are nearly always going to be better off with a cab without that issue to start with, leaving you free to concentrate on the other issues. Even on a cab with an issue, understanding its characteristics means you can work with it and a bad room, rearranging all the stuff in a weird room at the local gig pub yielded pretty good results, and minimal humping cabs about to find out because we knew roughly how it should work. Then one super smart guy in another band decided he knew better and faced a 4x12 at himself an directly at the wall behind him, rendering himself inaudible aside from his octaver glitching.
[/quote]

Ok, I'll break down what I'm trying to say since it feels like you're repeating yourself.

- I trust everything you, Bill and Alex (and others) have written in here. It fits with what I have experienced and I have no reason to disbelieve it.
- In my opinion, though dispersion can be a factor, there's far more important ones so for me dispersion is way down the checklist when I buy a cab.
- I accept that in your opinion dispersion is important and take it into account accordingly when looking at cabs.


:)

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[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343861713' post='1756669']
It's a sign!!! Ermmm... Of something... Or other...[/quote]

Visit to the dentist..? :huh:

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[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1343857819' post='1756572']
Would tipping the cab up, so that it was in a more diamond style configuration, so one speaker above another and then one either side at middle height, help?
[/quote]It would be better. Horizontal dispersion is inversely proportional to the width of the source. By making it narrower dispersion is widened. Of course this makes the head placement a bit of a task. BTW, the entire reason why drivers were placed horizontally in the first place was to accomodate a wide amp, first in combos, then in separates. No consideration was ever given to the dispersion issue because the amp designers weren't aware of it.

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For me, there are three main factors in when I buy a speaker cab:

1. Do I like the sound?
2. Can I lift it?
3. Does it fit in the load-space in my car?

May be a simplistic view, but these are the most important factors for my usage.

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[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1343871309' post='1756744']
It would be better. Horizontal dispersion is inversely proportional to the width of the source. By making it narrower dispersion is widened. Of course this makes the head placement a bit of a task.
[/quote]

You could always use the amp to prop the 4x10 up on. :yarr:

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[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1343871309' post='1756744']
BTW, the entire reason why drivers were placed horizontally in the first place was to accomodate a wide amp, first in combos, then in separates. No consideration was ever given to the dispersion issue because the amp designers weren't aware of it.
[/quote]

I think that's the answer everyone was actually wanting. Ya know, 'if 4x10s aren't so good, why have them.' I also appreciate that speakers of yore were also not very efficient nor powerful, so multiples of speakers were required to produce the volume. That therefore meant placing them horizontally as well as vertically in to nice neat stackable square boxes.

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[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1343888951' post='1756765']
For me, there are three main factors in when I buy a speaker cab:

1. Do I like the sound?
2. Can I lift it?
3. Does it fit in the load-space in my car?

May be a simplistic view, but these are the most important factors for my usage.
[/quote]

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You see, these types of conversations make me zone out. As bass players we deal and battle with the law of physics every time we plug in and we can't change those laws. It's important to be happy with whats going on behind you, but there are more important things you must concern yourself with during a performance. Chill!! Llife's too short!

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Lol. Post of the thread...!!!

Some posts here speaks volumes tho...... Very illuminating, and no, I am not talking about the 'science'. Lol lol lol

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[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1343899740' post='1756910']
...there are more important things you must concern yourself with during a performance. Chill!! Llife's too short![/quote]

Quite. I don't worry about dispersion at gigs. I worry about remembering my lines and trying not to look like a tit.

Edited by discreet

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[quote name='dood' timestamp='1343861713' post='1756669']
Going wildly off topic, on the way home from rehearsal this evening I stopped off to do some shopping and spotted these really tasty sticky iced buns. I've not bought one for years and years. Childhood even. Then I read this! It's a sign!!! Ermmm.. Of something... Or other,...
[/quote]

It was a reference to my teenage/early 20s years of going to gigs, mostly Slade. At a few (late70s/early 80s) a couple of mates & me would be helping to hump the gear in. They had 9 tons of it in two 40 foot trailers. Their tour managers then were either "Swinn" or Haden, both ferocious hard men who knew their job well. Each part had an expert, Charlie did the PA organising and was an electronics guru and was the despond of the crew. Total output? 26,000 watts. Once the gear was up & running it was the main crew & Nod or Jim Lea who met with them to iron out any issues, or maybe fixes from the previous night.
But at some point in the proceedings a tea-trolley would be pushed through with platefuls of iced-buns; the cry went up "Sticky buns!!!!" and the whole lot of them would descend on the trolley. I thought it was the dogs B's, stood drinking tea & eating buns with my heroes. Though after a few times it did get to the point of "hiya, how's it going?" rather than any kind of idolisation of any kind.

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