2x12 vs 4x10

[Lord Sausage]

Quite a number of numbers is murkier the waters again. So for instance. If you had a 500w amp you would recommend going into a 4ohm version of a 600w 2x12 cab rather than two 8 ohm versions of the same cab.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1341090486' post='1713835']
Surface area doesn't matter.
[url="http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/Volume-displacement.htm"]http://barefacedbass...isplacement.htm[/url]
[/quote]

Agreed. But a 212 mathematically is the same area as 310 (well about 98% if I remember correctly).

[LawrenceH]

<p>[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1341072615' post='1713541']
Would I rather have an S12? Yes! It's a brilliant-sounding 1200W cab that's a one-hand lift. But I just don't have £730 burning a hole in my pocket. You pays your money, etc.

Edit: Or as in my case you don't pay your money, etc. and get backache.
[/quote]
Given what you've already got, why don't you DIY a lightweight solution? If you 'borrow' the Kappalite from your J12 you're halfway to a Super 12 in driver terms, and if you can manage a Jack cab then a simple reflex box'd be a walk in the park in comparison... with the J12 horn you've traded the upper mid rock 'bite' of the kappalite for heavy vintage-style low mids. Cost you less than two ashdown 410s as well

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1341097827' post='1713916']
Agreed. But a 212 mathematically is the same area as 310 (well about 98% if I remember correctly).
[/quote]That depends on the displacement of the individual drivers, and by no means are all tens the same, nor twelves, or any other size.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1341096719' post='1713909']
Quite a number of numbers is murkier the waters again. So for instance. If you had a 500w amp you would recommend going into a 4ohm version of a 600w 2x12 cab rather than two 8 ohm versions of the same cab.
[/quote]

It makes absolutely no difference if you are talking one 2x12 v two 1x12; it is still a 4 ohm load and it is simply down to personal preference and for me the modularity of the pair of 1x12s makes that the winner. However if you are talking about one 4 ohm 2x12 v two 8 ohm 2x12 then the latter wins hands down (by a mile) due to the fact that you have twice as many drivers, double the displacement.

[discreet]

[quote name='LawrenceH' timestamp='1341100696' post='1713934']
If you 'borrow' the Kappalite from your J12 you're halfway to a Super 12 in driver terms, and if you can manage a Jack cab then a simple reflex box'd be a walk in the park in comparison...[/quote]

Thanks, that's certainly an idea. It may well not be as good as a barefaced, but I bet I could have a fair crack at it... and more to the point, would cost a lot less than seven hundred notes... ...got me thinking, now.

[chris_b]

Your DIY is good enough? It would certainly cost you less in the first place but your resale value could be a lot less than that.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1341129400' post='1713994']
It makes absolutely no difference if you are talking one 2x12 v two 1x12; it is still a 4 ohm load and it is simply down to personal preference and for me the modularity of the pair of 1x12s makes that the winner. However if you are talking about one 4 ohm 2x12 v two 8 ohm 2x12 then the latter wins hands down (by a mile) due to the fact that you have twice as many drivers, double the displacement.
[/quote]
Cheers pal.

[discreet]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1341131981' post='1714026']
Your DIY is good enough? It would certainly cost you less in the first place but your resale value could be a lot less than that.[/quote]

Check out my J12 build, link in sig. Resale value is irrelevant really, I'm never going to sell my J12 and I would never sell any other cab I made. Unless I got an offer I couldn't refuse, obviously...

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1341078287' post='1713645']
Surface area wise, a 212 is virtually equal to a 310, in the amount of air being pushed - I remember working it all out, from some equation that was on-line, but can`t remember what the equation was now.
[/quote]

LUL WUTS sosososo.

Best thing to do when buying cabs?
Go out there and try some. Ignoreing numbers, sizes and all that crap. You'll find one you like and that is all that matters really.

A few things I bare in mind when buying a cab is obviously ohmage, wattage to some degree, hieght, weight, front or rear or ported at all and tweeter options. That's about it, these are things that matter to me.
Also I bare in kind that if a 1x15 can perform on par with or out perform a 4x10 they won'ty sound at all similar, a single driver loaded cab will have a clearer mid range(or honky if that's your opinion) where as a multi-driver loaded cab may sound more full around the lows, in my opinion due to a muddy midrange.

[Marvin]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1341133997' post='1714043']
Check out my J12 build, link in sig. Resale value is irrelevant really, I'm never going to sell my J12 and I would never sell any other cab I made. Unless I got an offer I couldn't refuse, obviously...
[/quote]

£5 and a double CD and a pack of Wethers Originals

[Lozz196]

Re my earlier post about surface area of speakers - it was only that this to me gives some form of guidance as to how big the sound can be. Whilst I loved my Barefaced Compact & Midget setup, neither cab on its own was enough for my needs - irrespective of the techie stuff, I could hear that there wasn`t enough bulk to the sound. Whereas together they were just right (still miss that rig). So I look at surface area merely as a guide, and then let my ears do the work and make the choice.

Rather like looking for a house really. If your requirements are minimum 3 bedrooms, don`t matter how big/spacious lounge and kitchen are, if they are in a one bedroom flat, the property isn`t right. Don`t mean all 3 bed properties will be right, but use that as a guide, then choose accordingly.

[xgsjx]

t'is a good point, but when I'm looking at houses I always look at area, age & a few other things to go with the bedrooms (these new places have bedrooms smaller than my pantry).

[Lozz196]

Quite agree, in Hemel we don`t have houses or flats built anymore, we have "Exciting new developments of quality appartments". Or hutches as they are better known!

[JTUK]

Really...??? Seen too many ....and heard them, unfortunately, single 15's around here that really really don't work.... But hey, that is ok as it is a single carry.. But if the guys could hear the sound they were making then they would surely be ashamed but then if they really don't know, then they really don't know. Oh well.
I am sure some guys can make any cab sound bad.. And some can make the most of most cabs, but a lot of people seem to stop at the fact that certain cabs produces oddles of bass and that is as far as they get. Now, if you want a recipe for mud and mush just go mad on the bass frequency and if you have an inherently bassey cab then you aren't far off getting into all sorts of trouble. ALL SORTS. Imo

[discreet]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1341139382' post='1714147']
...a pack of Wethers Originals [/quote]

Paedo Pellets..? You're on!

[BigRedX]

As Prime Bass says stop looking at the numbers and look and listen to the cabs themselves.

AFAIAC there are 5 things to consider when buying a cab:

1. Do you like the sound?
2. Is is loud enough with your amp?
3. Do you like the weight?
4. Do you like how it looks?
5. Will it fit in your car with all the other equipment you need to carry?

Those are the things that really matter.

[TG Flatline]

The only way is to play through as many cabs as you can and see what you like about each one. After using Ashdown ABM cabs for ages (mini 1x15 and 4x8, 1x15 and 4x10, and then just 4x10) I know I won't be buying any of them again, unless I needed to go back to the very compact size of the minis. To me they sound like you've got a blanket over the cabs, they sound dull and "thick" but not full or fat or bulked out with lows, nor did they cut through in a band mix without some fairly excessive EQ'ing. Even then it was a compromise.

I now use two BFM Jack 15's. Complete overkill but never mind. They are very loud and very clear (even without tweeters), far more so than any of the Ashdowns. Better cabinet design and higher quality speakers in this case having far more impact than speaker size. If I was making the above choice, I would choose a 2x12 over a 4x10 any day. I would like to have two BFM Jack 2x10's at some point (more overkill), but they would be vertically stacked so not a traditional 4x10 by any stretch of the imagination.

Whilst I say that the best thing to do is to try as many cabs as you possibly can, I think it also makes sense to read as much of the information on the Barefaced website so you can have a bit more knowledge to work from. Someone mentioned the "3 bed house" analogy above, a good one I think. Consider getting yourself a bit more clued up on the tech side of things as doing a reccy of the area the houses are in so you know you're not moving into a nice house in a sh*tty area.

One thing I would say from experience (and that you would read on Barefaced or the BFM forum) - don't mix speakers. Use tens, or twelves, or fifteens - but not a combination. If you want to combine different speakers for mids and highs etc either buy an EAD Foundation 212 or build a BFM Omni.

Good luck with the search. At the very least I would suggest the 5 questions posed by BigRedX are essentials

[Musicman20]

[quote name='TG Flatline' timestamp='1341166251' post='1714600']
The only way is to play through as many cabs as you can and see what you like about each one. After using Ashdown ABM cabs for ages (mini 1x15 and 4x8, 1x15 and 4x10, and then just 4x10) I know I won't be buying any of them again, unless I needed to go back to the very compact size of the minis. To me they sound like you've got a blanket over the cabs, they sound dull and "thick" but not full or fat or bulked out with lows, nor did they cut through in a band mix without some fairly excessive EQ'ing. Even then it was a compromise.

I now use two BFM Jack 15's. Complete overkill but never mind. They are very loud and very clear (even without tweeters), far more so than any of the Ashdowns. Better cabinet design and higher quality speakers in this case having far more impact than speaker size. If I was making the above choice, I would choose a 2x12 over a 4x10 any day. I would like to have two BFM Jack 2x10's at some point (more overkill), but they would be vertically stacked so not a traditional 4x10 by any stretch of the imagination.

Whilst I say that the best thing to do is to try as many cabs as you possibly can, I think it also makes sense to read as much of the information on the Barefaced website so you can have a bit more knowledge to work from. Someone mentioned the "3 bed house" analogy above, a good one I think. Consider getting yourself a bit more clued up on the tech side of things as doing a reccy of the area the houses are in so you know you're not moving into a nice house in a sh*tty area.

One thing I would say from experience (and that you would read on Barefaced or the BFM forum) - don't mix speakers. Use tens, or twelves, or fifteens - but not a combination. If you want to combine different speakers for mids and highs etc either buy an EAD Foundation 212 or build a BFM Omni.

Good luck with the search. At the very least I would suggest the 5 questions posed by BigRedX are essentials
[/quote]

The BF site suggests mixing speakers on their modular rigs, I think...

[4 Strings]

Yep, Midget + Compact being the classic BF combination.

I got that.

[Musicman20]

All the ones I've heard have been designed to be mixed, with good results. Personally I wouldn't mix random manufacturers anyway...I think that's much more of a gamble than same manufacturer but different sizes.

[TG Flatline]

Exactly, they're designed to work together. Your Ashdown/Ampeg/Trace Elliot etc etc etc cabs with different speaker sizes won't be.

[chris_b]

I spent the first 2 years on BC being told that mixing speakers sizes definitely never worked, when I was getting a great sound out of a mixed size rig!

How can any of us assume we know exactly how a manufacturer’s cabs were designed?

We can't.

We should bow to a player’s experience of those cabs. They've done it and actually know if the result was good or bad.

[Lozz196]

Yep, I`ve never had a bad sound out of a "mixed size" rig. In addition, I`m sure many of us look to professional bassists as inspirations, and how many of them use "mixed size" rigs? Probably a fair few. Why, if we like/liked the sounds they get, would we then criticise that very gear they used to get the sound? BTW, aware that studio recordings are eq-d etc. Am talking about live acts.

The technology thing is fine, wouldn`t knock it, as most of it passes me by, but ultimately, to me it comes down to:
Ears
Back
Transport
Budget

[xgsjx]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1341226173' post='1715288']
I spent the first 2 years on BC being told that mixing speakers sizes definitely never worked, when I was getting a great sound out of a mixed size rig!

How can any of us assume we know exactly how a manufacturer’s cabs were designed?

We can't.

[b]We should bow to a player’s experience of those cabs. They've done it and actually know if the result was good or bad.[/b]
[/quote]

But isn't that an assumption that "they should know"?
Snake oil can be a powerful thing & if someone's been told that a 4x10 & 1x15 rig is the best & that's all they ever use, how would they know any different?