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cacking my pants!


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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338573812' post='1676720']
The buyer trusts the courier, its them that is contracting with them. That makes it exactly the same situation as if they sent any other third party, except with the additional guarantee of a recognised name of the courier, and the requirement for them to leave paperwork. [/quote]

Thats all well and good, but as has been pointed out repeatedly---paypal themselves make it clear that you are not covered as a seller in this scenario.

[quote]If you make yourself difficult to deal with deliberately, that is the whole point of the feedback system.
[/quote]

If anyone is being difficult to deal with here it is the buyer. And sellers can no longer leave negative feedback for buyers.

If it were a small, easily packaged item, or the buyer had asked before the auction ended if it would be ok, then I would be sympathetic with his position. But bidding on a large, heavy, and awkward sized item that explicitly says "collection in person" on it and then expecting the seller to go to the hassle of packing it, as well as leaving themselves open to a possible paypal scam, is just too much.

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338573812' post='1676720']
The buyer trusts the courier, its them that is contracting with them. That makes it exactly the same situation as if they sent any other third party, except with the additional guarantee of a recognised name of the courier, and the requirement for them to leave paperwork. Its all about co-operation to get your item sold. If you make yourself difficult to deal with deliberately, that is the whole point of the feedback system.
[/quote]
The buyer doesn't know the courier(s) who is acting on behalf of his trusted agent (UPS). Therefore there can be no trust with the courier, just with the reputation of the firm (or firms) he's working for.

You've got very little chance of being able to ring that courier and ask where the hell he is and when he's going to arrive, nor very much chance of arranging for him to collect at about 8pm - especially if you wanted to meet at a mutually agreeable place other than an easily identifiable address.

I can agree that it's all about co-operation, although I wouldn't describe ignoring a seller's specified terms as co-operation. The seller presumably wanted to avoid a lot of hassle by not posting - by ignoring the conditions of sale the buyer has just given him grief by the bucket load.

Had he not minded all that hassle he probably would have got a higher price to start with.

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[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1338574640' post='1676735']
Thats all well and good, but as has been pointed out repeatedly---paypal themselves make it clear that you are not covered as a seller in this scenario.
[/quote]

Read teh scenario, and note who is being addressed by each statement in the link, and note it is regarding seller protection. One is for a person having scammers offer to buy a car by paypal, and nothing to do with ebay. Seller protection isn't even relevant anyway, all that the seller has to do is being able to respond to a buyer protection case, and buyer protection doesn't apply when an item is collected by the buyer. You have been paid by them, they can't get their payment back without bringing a case and succeeding

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338576124' post='1676770']
buyer protection doesn't apply when an item is collected by the buyer.
[/quote]

Yes. It. Does.

As I posted before:

www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012/jan/27/is-paypal-safe-protection

[i]Anthony Lodge from Harlow, Essex, is one victim of PayPal's policy. [b]Back in November the self-employed chemist sold his Apple MacBook Pro on eBay for £650. The buyer made a payment via PayPal. Two days later the "buyer" picked up the laptop[/b], and left positive feedback on Lodge's eBay account.[/i]

[i]"I didn't get him to sign anything as I had the money in my account and assumed the deal had been completed," he says.[/i]
[i]However, six weeks later he received an email from PayPal telling him that the account holder had disputed the transaction, and it was investigating. [b]Ten days on, PayPal informed him it had refunded the buyer from his account because he hadn't sent the laptop by recorded delivery and therefore "had no proof of delivery".[/b][/i]

Or as Johnston posted before, direct from a paypal employee:

https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Holds-reversals-and-reserves/collection-scam/m-p/354004/highlight/true#M2978

[i][b]you should really consider asking for cash on collection if a buyer wants to collect an item from you. If a case is filed and you are requested to provide proof to show where the item is, you wouldn't be able to provide us with any information and it could result in the payment being refunded back to the buyer.[/b][/i]

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First one didn't go via the ebay dispute process, which would have found in the guys favour due to positive feedback, I would guess he just ignored all messages and didn't respond assuming it would sort itself out (non response from a party = finding in favour of other party). Second was not via ebay, where the shipping/collection method is made clear, in the OP case, collection.

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Proof of deliver for the seller is the proof they've handed it to the collector. The stuff you posted is from Paypal, who operate their claims system separately from Ebay, Ebay having a lot more procedural stuff forming the agreement between seller and buyer, for exactly the reason of dispute resolution. The fact you don't understand or notice the difference between the two is why you are throwing up inapplicable scenarios. If you agree to ship an item via ebay, and then actually hand it over, then you have the obligation to provide a POD to the address agreed, because you've said you will deliver, with a collection only, the proof of collection from the courier is as far as you need. And the cash on collection was still regarding stuff not via Ebay where its entirely done on trust with no claims or arbitration process or records.

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[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1338581265' post='1676883']
It's cash on collection. so unless the courier comes with the cash....

otherwise arrange your own courier, quote for packaging and then quote for your time for wrapping and waiting for the courier.
[/quote]

If its on ebay, paypal has to be an option.

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338584487' post='1676953']
If its on ebay, paypal has to be an option.
[/quote]

Another reason why paypal / ebay are not popular. They insist on making paypal a payment option but their protection policies mean that a seller who accepts paypal for a collection item is not necessarily protected. Its a nasty catch-22 that is well documented.

Personally speaking, if I was selling something high value cash-on-collection I would insist on the buyer paying cash. I'd rather take the feedback/fees hit than risk getting scammed.

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[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1338584968' post='1676961']
Another reason why paypal / ebay are not popular. They insist on making paypal a payment option but their protection policies mean that a seller who accepts paypal for a collection item is not necessarily protected. Its a nasty catch-22 that is well documented.

Personally speaking, if I was selling something high value cash-on-collection I would insist on the buyer paying cash. I'd rather take the feedback/fees hit than risk getting scammed.
[/quote]

With the Ebay protection (bearing in mind all the preceding stuff mentioned was paypal independent of ebay) you have the written agreement in the form of your invoice and payment details saying 'buyer to collect' plus all communication on record to back you up in case of issues, which makes it a pretty different deal to a pure paypal transaction, where its your word against theirs.

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338585219' post='1676970']
With the Ebay protection (bearing in mind all the preceding stuff mentioned was paypal independent of ebay) you have the written agreement in the form of your invoice and payment details saying 'buyer to collect' plus all communication on record to back you up in case of issues, which makes it a pretty different deal to a pure paypal transaction, where its your word against theirs.
[/quote]

Paypal and eBay are not independent. They are owned by the same people. The cases I mentioned were ebay auctions where the buyer paid by paypal.

Seeing as you were so keen on posting links earlier---please show me the part of eBay's t&cs which backs up your argument. Especially [url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/seller-protection-faq.html#How%20are%20sellers%20protected%20from%20losing%20a%20case?"]given this entry from their FAQ[/url]

[size=3][i][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For “item not received” cases, if sellers post the item within their stated handling time and provide a valid proof of delivery for the item, eBay is likely to decide in their favour.[/font][/color][/i]

[color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][i]“Proof of delivery” is [b]online documentation[/b] from a postal company that includes [b]all of the following[/b]:[/i][/font][/color][/size][list]
[*][size=3][i]A status of “delivered” (or equivalent in the country to which the item was delivered) and the date of delivery.[/i][/size]
[*][size=3][i]The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/county or postcode (or international equivalent).[/i][/size]
[*][size=3][i]Signature Confirmation for transactions that total £150 or more.[/i][/size]
[/list]
Honestly, I'm beginning to think you're just trolling.

Edited by uncle psychosis
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[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1338585858' post='1676992']
Paypal and eBay are not independent. They are owned by the same people. The cases I mentioned were ebay auctions where the buyer paid by paypal.
[/quote]

But they do have seperate dispute resolution processes, the paypal one applies to both, but the ebay one only applies to ebay transactions, and ebay fully co-operate with paypal in the sense of releasing all information such as the transaction details. Like the bit that entirely lacks a mention of posting on this item, and all of the messages exchanged.

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1338585858' post='1676992']
Seeing as you were so keen on posting links earlier---please show me the part of eBay's t&cs which backs up your argument. Especially [url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/seller-protection-faq.html#How%20are%20sellers%20protected%20from%20losing%20a%20case?"]given this entry from their FAQ[/url]

[size=3][i][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For “item not received” cases, if sellers post the item within their stated handling time and provide a valid proof of delivery for the item, eBay is likely to decide in their favour.[/font][/color][/i]

[color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][i]“Proof of delivery” is [b]online documentation[/b] from a postal company that includes [b]all of the following[/b]:[/i][/font][/color][/size][list]
[*][size=3][i]A status of “delivered” (or equivalent in the country to which the item was delivered) and the date of delivery.[/i][/size]
[*][size=3][i]The recipient’s address, showing at least the city/county or postcode (or international equivalent).[/i][/size]
[*][size=3][i]Signature Confirmation for transactions that total £150 or more.[/i][/size]
[/list]
[/quote]

This is still regarding the seller posting, which is not the case if the buyer has the item collected.

You are welcome to think its trolling, but the same logic in what I've said applies from the very start, which is why you have to keep on pretending the seller is posting the item in order to form a rebuttal, when that is not the case.

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[quote name='skidder652003' timestamp='1338554284' post='1676256']
just contacted by the buyer and they want me to wrap it for a courier and i said collection only!
God knows what its going to cost to courier, way more than its worth i would guess!


[color=#000][font=arial, sans-serif][size=2][b]Dear skidder652003,[/b]

Hello.
I am the lucky winner.
I will pay you till Monday via paypal.
I can arrange the ollection via UPS service for Tuesday or Wednesday.
Can you please pack nit for me?

Please also inform me with your contact name,full adress and mobile phone number.

Waiting for your reply.

Kind regards[/size][/font][/color]


[color=#000][font=arial, sans-serif][size=2][b]- ladybird079[/b][/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]
I would be wary-it sounds like a scammer to me,judging by the poor use of grammar. <_<

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338587437' post='1677043']
But they do have seperate dispute resolution processes, the paypal one applies to both, but the ebay one only applies to ebay transactions, and ebay fully co-operate with paypal in the sense of releasing all information such as the transaction details. Like the bit that entirely lacks a mention of posting on this item, and all of the messages exchanged.
[/quote]

Go on then. Show me the bit of the ebay t&cs which says that in the case of cash and collection using paypal you will be covered if the buyer claims not to have received it.

A few emails saying "yeah I'll come and pick it up" are not proof of delivery. The buyer can just say "I turned up to pick it up and no-one answered the door" and you're back to square one.

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In fact, eBay themselves say that they won't help you if the buyer claims via PayPal:

[size=3][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Buyers may still file a dispute using [/font][/color][url="https://www.paypal-marketing.co.uk/safetyadvice/ProtectionForBuyers.htm"]PayPal Buyer Protection[/url][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[b] If a buyer chooses to resolve the dispute through PayPal, then the eBay Buyer Protection Policy will not apply [/b](instead, PayPal Buyer Protection will apply).[/font][/color][/size]

[url="http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/buyer-protection.html#paypal"]http://pages.ebay.co...ion.html#paypal[/url]

Edited by uncle psychosis
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[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1338589570' post='1677082']
the case of cash and collection using paypal
[/quote]

How does that question even make sense?

If you have their money, and they've got their goods, you don't need protection. The only thing that can happen is they try and use their protection by claiming non-delivery, whereupon you have the evidence that delivery was nothing to do with you, and additionally the evidence you have handed over goods to a courier in the form of the pickup receipt.

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338591625' post='1677109']
If you have their money, and they've got their goods, you don't need protection. The only thing that can happen is they try and use their protection by claiming non-delivery, whereupon you have the evidence that delivery was nothing to do with you, and additionally the evidence you have handed over goods to a courier in the form of the pickup receipt.
[/quote]

We've been over this. Repeatedly.

[b][size=6]Proof that you gave an item to a courier is not what paypal will accept as proof of delivery to the buyer. [/size][/b]

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[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1338592063' post='1677113']
We've been over this. Repeatedly.

[b][size=6]Proof that you gave an item to a courier is not what paypal will accept as proof of delivery to the buyer. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

You have no obligation to deliver an item that is being collected by the buyer. That is all of the point. If you have no obligation to deliver, because its a collect item, then you cannot be held responsible for ensuring delivery. How hard is that to grasp?

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[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1338568236' post='1676588']
I'm afraid the last two pages have just passed me by. I've read it all, but roughly half of it makes no sense at all.

The listing said, and I quote:

Postage & Packing = Free collection in person
Service = Collection in person

I'm NOT a lawyer, but I would cheerfully go to Court on this one.

Sending a courier is NOT collection in person. Sending a courier and expecting the vendor to packup a 40Kg cabinet IS taking the piss.

IMHO, the vendor should invite the purchaser to collect in person, paying cash on arrival, or expect to be reported to eBay for breach.
[/quote]
This pithy post from Jack sums up the start and finish of the OP's problems.

It was collect in person. Not collect on behalf of person, allow agent to collect, entrust to courier or anything else. [b]Collect in person.[/b]

Nobody has as yet posted a link to ebay's ruling that sending a courier constitutes collecting in person, so quite honestly everything else is moot - the buyer falls at the first hurdle.

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[quote name='Musky' timestamp='1338598441' post='1677159']
Nobody has as yet posted a link to ebay's ruling that sending a courier constitutes collecting in person, so quite honestly everything else is moot - the buyer falls at the first hurdle.
[/quote]

Yes! I would have told the buyer to do one and relisted the item.
If the buyer had insisted on paying via PayPal anyway, I would have immediately refunded the payment then blocked the buyer. Simple. The previous six or so pages about couriers, agents and other persiflage is just a load of pant-cack.

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[quote name='Twigman' timestamp='1338566799' post='1676549']
But the buyer is sending UPS to collect.
The buyer is NOT asking the seller to post it.
No more hassle than the buyer collecting.
What's the difference between the buyer collecting and UPS collecting?
NOTHING

The seller is just looking for an excuse to relist coz he got less than he wanted.
Poor form!
[/quote]

eh? No Im Not! Where did you get that idea from?
I just had a bitch about the correspondance i recieved when i stated clearly pickup only!
If she (actually) wants to send a courier thats her problem, its going to cost a minimum of 60 quid and thats even if they will pick something up that's probably 60 kilos, as long as i get paid on Monday im not bothered who collects it.

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[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338592709' post='1677119']


You have no obligation to deliver an item that is being collected by the buyer. That is all of the point. If you have no obligation to deliver, because its a collect item, then you cannot be held responsible for ensuring delivery. How hard is that to grasp?
[/quote]

Sigh.

You have an obligation to prove the buyer got it.

Paypal themselves say that if you allow someone to collect an item you will not meet their standards of proof and are thus vulnerable to "item not received" claims. This is why even Paypal employees will say not to accept anything other than cold hard cash if handing over an item in person.

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