Need help understanding power ratings...

[charic]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1338387766' post='1673709']
If you're playing Gospel, get a 5 string bass, a 410 or 212 cab, a 500 watt amp with a good DI and some flight cases.

I think your brain would be better off full of bass lessons than this other stuff!
[/quote]

Fair point

[charic]

[quote name='GregBass' timestamp='1338387450' post='1673703']
See my post immediately above yours - doesn't that show clearly that clipping is flattening of the peak of the wave? And isn't a flat voltage waveform actually a direct voltage?
[/quote]

It's flat to the eye in that yes, but what about all the harmonics that are going to be generated. If you push pure DC at a cone it wouldn't technically create any sound IIRC

[BOD2]

[quote name='bassickman' timestamp='1338387486' post='1673705']
I'm on tour with a London Community Gospel Choir. I have 5k to spend on gear. hense the questions so I can get it right.
[/quote]

Will the bass sound be put through the PA system ?

This is quite an important consideration. If the bass goes through the PA then you don't need a big powerful amplifier setup as it will only end up causing volume problems with the other players and you'll end up turning it way, way down so as not to deafen everybody (and then big powerful sound will come through the PA).

In that case you'd probably be looking at a mid-powered amplifier - say 300 to 500 Watts - with, as Chris_B suggests, a 4x10 or 2x10 cabinet of a smilar or greater power. Use your ears when playing - if you're pushing up the volume on the amp and it starts to sound unpleasanty distorted then simply back off a little.

Best advice is to have a look around to see what specific equipment you like and then ask for some opinions on here and people can tell you about it.

[GregBass]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1338387766' post='1673709']
If you're playing Gospel, get a 5 string bass, a 410 or 212 cab, a 500 watt amp with a good DI and some flight cases.

I think your brain would be better off full of bass lessons than this other stuff!
[/quote]

Indeed.

[xgsjx]

You have a very decent budget. I wouldn't rush into anything either.
You may well find a full rig that suits all your needs & still have a coulpe of £k change.

I saw David Phelps about a year ago & his bassist was using a Sadowsky into a Boss ME-50B fx unit & then into an SWR Super Redhead & all popped through the PA.

If you're going into a decent PA system, then the onstage rig is just for you & the band to hear. So get what You like the sound of.

[BOD2]

[quote name='GregBass' timestamp='1338387450' post='1673703']
And isn't a flat voltage waveform actually a direct voltage?
[/quote]

No, a "flat waveform" is not a direct voltage - it's a square wave.

A direct voltage, if displayed on a scope, would be a continuous straight line above (or below - but NOT both) the zero line on the scope.

If you apply a direct voltage to a speaker (not generally a good idea) the cone will push out and stay out (or it will pull back and stay back). It won't make any noise as the cone needs to move backward AND forwards to create air pressure which creates the sound.

[GregBass]

[quote name='BOD2' timestamp='1338389002' post='1673743']
No, a "flat waveform" is not a direct voltage - it's a square wave.

A direct voltage, if displayed on a scope, would be a continuous straight line above (or below - but NOT both) the zero line on the scope.

If you apply a direct voltage to a speaker (not generally a good idea) the cone will push out and stay out (or it will pull back and stay back). It won't make any noise as the cone needs to move backward AND forwards to create air pressure which creates the sound.
[/quote]

I think you may have missed the bit where I said "for that short period while the line is flat". If you ignore the rest of the waveform, for that short time there is DC applied across the speaker. For that short period, the speaker is pushed (or pulled) and held in a particular position. There's no sound generated, but there may be a bit of heat. This, as you say, is not a good idea - and that was actually my initial point.

[xgsjx]

Not that I would know, but is it not AC?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='GregBass' timestamp='1338390130' post='1673783']
I think you may have missed the bit where I said "for that short period while the line is flat". [b]If you ignore the rest of the waveform,[/b] for that short time there is DC applied across the speaker. For that short period, the speaker is pushed (or pulled) and held in a particular position. There's no sound generated, but there may be a bit of heat. This, as you say, is not a good idea - and that was actually my initial point.
[/quote]

So if you ignore the fact it is a wave, then it isn't a wave.

However, it isn't flat if you have a speaker on it:

[quote]If you scope it, you do not see a constant flat line above or below 0v which is DC, and you only see a flat top into a purely resistive load, an inductive (such as a speaker) load rounds them off, because the impedance varies with frequency. Basic physics is that if its a waveform, it is alternating, otherwise is isn't a wave, its a flow.[/quote]

And the suggestion that a clipping amp makes no sound is a bit silly, don't you think?

Edit:

And to the OP, give an idea of what sound you want, and we can get on tot he gear suggestions. My tendency in recommendations is to figure what sort of amp is suitable, then match it up with a Barefaced cab, since they cover most ground, and don't have too much sound of their own so don't introduce further sound variables. But if you want to mix it up some, I'll work with what you are after.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Mr. Foxen

[Mark_Andertons]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1338387766' post='1673709']
If you're playing Gospel, get a 5 string bass, a 410 or 212 cab, a 500 watt amp with a good DI and some flight cases.

I think your brain would be better off full of bass lessons than this other stuff!
[/quote]

+1

though if you want to play Gospel you really needs a 6 string American MTD and a wall of GKs

[JTUK]

£5K... nice budget if just on an amp and cab..if you include a bass in that, then
you need to be sensible.

What has your research thrown up so far..IIRC, you spend the day at BassD..? what did you like the sound/look of..?

I think you need a few of these visits to the same sort of shops to see what is about.

What about transporting the stuff..?? no point in going for the big FO rig and you can't move it.

Edited May 30, 2012 by JTUK

[dincz]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1338385955' post='1673665']
The difference between a sine wave and square wave is the harmonic content. A sine wave has none, a square wave has all the [size=5]odd[/size] harmionics of the fundamental
[/quote]

[Mr. Foxen]

Go run a fast Fourier transform on your 'square' wave and see what harmonics you get.

[dincz]

[quote name='GregBass' timestamp='1338390130' post='1673783']
"for that short period while the line is flat". If you ignore the rest of the waveform, for that short time there is DC applied across the speaker.[/quote]

But you could say the same for an ac waveform. If you take a sufficiently short portion of the peak of the waveform, it would look like DC as well. It might be relevant if your notes are only a few microseconds long - but then they wouldn't be notes.

[bassickman]

The £5k budget is for amp and bass. I'm thinking maybe Fender jazz deluxe 5 with mark bass little mark tube 500 and a mark bass 4 x 10. Or maybe a genz benz shuttle and a vanderkley 4 x 10 or......... a genz benz with a bergantino 4 x10.

Thoughts?

I've been to bass Direct all day today and I have only warmed to this gear. However, obviously I didn't try every bass in there.

Maybe a bass modelled on a j-bass with better components would be an option.

[GregBass]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1338396234' post='1673940']
But you could say the same for an ac waveform. If you take a sufficiently short portion of the peak of the waveform, it would look like DC as well. It might be relevant if your notes are only a few microseconds long - but then they wouldn't be notes.
[/quote]

Jeez this becoming hard work. If you look at the link I posted, that waveform was clipped for maybe 60% of its period in each half cycle. Now you may class that as negligible, but I would reckon its **almost** noticeable as a distortion of the expected waveform. Of course, if the clipping is not noticeable then theres probably no issue.

[dincz]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338396166' post='1673939']
Go run a fast Fourier transform on your 'square' wave and see what harmonics you get.
[/quote]

I've got no way of doing that at the monent, but I'd expect to see what others have seen:

[GregBass]

[quote name='bassickman' timestamp='1338396608' post='1673944']
The £5k budget is for amp and bass. I'm thinking maybe Fender jazz deluxe 5 with mark bass little mark tube 500 and a mark bass 4 x 10. Or maybe a genz benz shuttle and a vanderkley 4 x 10 or......... a genz benz with a bergantino 4 x10.

Thoughts?

I've been to bass Direct all day today and I have only warmed to this gear. However, obviously I didn't try every bass in there.

Maybe a bass modelled on a j-bass with better components would be an option.
[/quote]

I saw someone using a Markbass setup a couple of weeks ago, and it sounded pretty decent to me. (Waits for someone with advanced electronics knowledge to tell me I didn't see it, and even if I did it sounded bad).

That sounds like a good setup for what you are aiming to do.

[GregBass]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1338396686' post='1673946']
I've got no way of doing that at the monent, but I'd expect to see what others have seen:
[/quote]

I wouldnt bother. Accurate theory doesn'y win over dogma, Im afraid.

[Mark_Andertons]

[quote name='bassickman' timestamp='1338396608' post='1673944']
The £5k budget is for amp and bass. I'm thinking maybe Fender jazz deluxe 5 with mark bass little mark tube 500 and a mark bass 4 x 10. Or maybe a genz benz shuttle and a vanderkley 4 x 10 or......... a genz benz with a bergantino 4 x10.
[/quote]

Might I be so bold as to suggest that a Jazz 5 might not be best option for Gospel. 5 String Fender Jazz Bass is only a 34" Scale length which makes it harder for the low B to ring true and to get that proper silk smooth low end. If you think about most of the really big names in Gospel bass Bubby Lewis, Justin Raines, Andrew Gouche they all play 35" scale basses (albeit all MTDs because Tobias snaps up any Gospel Bassist worth their salt to endorse) but there's a reason they all way long scales on their 5 or 6 string basses.

So yeah definitely lay hands on a 35" and see the difference it makes! If you need a starting point the Ibanez BTB675 is great. You might want something even better but you'll immediately feel the difference compared to a Jazz V which just feels like the low B was stuck on as a badly considered after-thought (which cynics will point out it basically is).

Awesome gig to land by the way! Very jealous.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1338396686' post='1673946']
I've got no way of doing that at the monent, but I'd expect to see what others have seen:
[/quote]

That is for an ideal square wave, and not a clipped wave. In the real world you don't get ideal square waves because they require infinite bandwidth. Hence the suggestion of applying a real world observation, rather than demonstrating your limited understanding of the subject matter, and claiming others have seen the impossible to try and back up your claims.

[Mark_Andertons]

Jeez can you guys move the AC/DC stuff to another thread? I think it's fair to say it's gone off the topic right now. Trying to help a brother out and you guys just want to debate and defend your prides not actually help the OP with his rig.

[dincz]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1338397436' post='1673965']
That is for an ideal square wave, and not a clipped wave. In the real world you don't get ideal square waves because they require infinite bandwidth. Hence the suggestion of applying a real world observation, rather than demonstrating your limited understanding of the subject matter, and claiming others have seen the impossible to try and back up your claims.
[/quote]

Ah, 'square wave' as opposed to square wave I need to study the rules of this game.

But even an imperfect square wave won't contain [i]"all the harmionics of the fundamental occuring at the same voltage swing as the fundamental" [/i]

Edited May 30, 2012 by dincz

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='GregBass' timestamp='1338387450' post='1673703']
And isn't a flat voltage waveform actually a direct voltage?
[/quote]No.
[quote]

Go run a fast Fourier transform on your 'square' wave and see what harmonics you get
[/quote]+1. Or run it through a low pass filter to remove the harmonics. What will remain is a sine wave. A woofer voice coil is a low pass filter. One of the design characteristics of guitar drivers is low Le, so that the harmonics aren't filtered at too low a corner frequency.
.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dincz' timestamp='1338397758' post='1673973']
Ah, 'square wave' as opposed to square wave I need to study the rules of this game.
[/quote]

Everything needs to relate to reality, in order to facilitate understanding. Every example you've cited as fact in opposition to people who already understand relies on removing the reality. Hence the use of quotes in the instruction.