5 String Necks & Strings

[bigsmokebass]

[size=3]

[b]Edit: Just to say a big thanks for everyone who's contributed upto now [/b]

Hello BC'ers

I'm struggling with my 5 string neck on my Music Man, i had it loaded with some Slinky 135's over xmas and another change since then and a setup i had not 2 weeks back but i think with the heavy set of strings and the weather have lead it into a bow.

i had some Roto's 125's on and a truss rod tweak to relieve it of the strain and let it find its own way back but theres still some bowing there.

Now, I've had a few 5 strings before but not had them as long as this one or the way they where setup made them durable and my 4 strings are built like sh*t houses that i've never had a neck issue. [/size]
[list=1]
[*][size=3]Are 5 strings really this fidgety? [/size]
[*][size=3]Music Man, unfinished maple necks good all round? [/size]
[*][size=3]Other than sound, is there a difference in fretboards?[/size]
[*][size=3]What can i do other than storing in its case to protect it?[/size]
[*][size=3]. . . . and is there any advice you could give me on this matter?[/size]
[/list]

[size=3]All comments are appreciated

BSB[/size]

Edited June 7, 2012 by bigsmokebass

[JD1]

I had problems with one Stingray 5. The bowing however was from just past the 12th fret upwards so some of the higher notes were choking - especially when bending the strings up there. Because of where the bowing was the truss rod was largely ineffective. I asked Chris May at Overwater about it. They dressed the frets at the top end of the neck, so it was quite playable but there wasn't much could be done about the bowing. Chris put it down to a weaker piece of timber having been used for the neck and that he had seen it from time to time (not necessarily just on MusicMans) - and why Overwater and others such as Fender strengthened the neck there with carbon rods or similar.

Your bowing problem might not be the same - but it could be that the neck is "weak" or the truss rod isn't working properly. Certainly don't over tighten it. I'd get a luthier to have a look at it - and as you've done, in the meantime string it with a lighter gauge.

[Fat Rich]

My 4 string Stingray moves all over the place, all fixable with truss rod adjustments but every month it needs adjusting again. I think your unfinished maple neck is the problem (like mine) and not that you have 5 strings, I'm actually thinking of getting the neck refinished to seal it up because I'm tired of adjusting it.

I've had wooden necked 5 stringers in the past and they've been stable, my current Status graphite necks are completely impervious to temperature / moisture levels and haven't been adjusted since they left the factory, they're always perfectly in tune with low action whenever I play them. My Fenders need the occasional tweak but nothing too serious.

You could maybe try lighter strings, maybe there'll be less strain on the neck from temperature variations. Keeping it in it's case may help too, mine came with a sachet of stuff which presumably soaks up the moisture so add one of those or replace it if it's saturated. But that won't help if you go from a cold car to a hot venue, you'll just need to take a suitable tool to adjust the bass before you go on stage.

Good luck!

[bigsmokebass]

Thanks for the correspondence guys, I believe from what you've put it could be weak timber and with it being unfinished.
Looking at it more today, the bowing only really starts from the 7th fret to the nut which I've never really heard of before but it seems where the tension is naturally held anyway.

Rich, I know what you mean on your prev 5'ers. I've had 2 ibanez, a cheap one but pretty good as I never had a problem other than when I swapped to heavier strings (as expected) in my metal days and a SRX which had a chunky, baseball bat neck I don't think much would affect it and then a MM SR5 with rosewood which didn't seem to have the same affect but I only had it from spring to winter in the one year.

I'll go to a luthier at some point and see what they say without doing a lot, otherwise I'll see about getting it finished when I save my pennies up

Thanks again

BSB

[TomRichards]

At Brubaker we have made a reputation for 5's. While maybe 2-3% ever really experience changes due to climate and other changes, with a 5 string you can often see many different situations that you will never see on a 4 string. What most builders will never tell you is that just the simple change in neck dimension going from 4 to 5 drastically changes the stresses on the neck as well as puts the single truss rod method of reinforcement at its limits. Changing to a thicker string at the same scale definitely increases the tension. You are basically putting stresses on the neck to its design capacity.

That being said, even with 2 truss rods early Rickenbackers had issues, which is why they changed the design when roundwounds became the norm. And that was on a 4 string.

I don't know the particulars of your MM, but it sounds like your particular bass may have a truss rod issue, or there is definitely a neck wood issue.

My climate is not that far from yours, and I don't store my basses in precise climate control nor do I put my basses away other then in a stand when I'm using them regularly. I don't seem to experience these issues, but again, it could be your unfinished neck, although unless the humidity is near 100% day in and day out I can't see this as a normal occurance.

Have a luthier check it out. My guess is that a new truss rod, maybe even a titanium one, might solve the problem for good.

[bigsmokebass]

Wouldn't mind a Brubaker, fancy a trade? haha

Thanks for your advice Tom, I think I need to find local luthiers and get a range of opinions from people who know what theyre talking about before I start throwing my money about- which I don't have.

I don't think I'm the only one with this issue from MusicMan basses from the comments and a few PMs, It seems the unfinished maple necks and frets aren't going down so well. Do you think this issue could have been avoided if they had finished it?

At the end of the day, if I can get this bass "repaired" on the cheap, I'll still keep this beauty of a bass but if it's going to keep costing me and causing me grief I may look into rehoming it

BSB

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1337177663' post='1656711']
.......What most builders will never tell you is that just the simple change in neck dimension going from 4 to 5 drastically changes the stresses on the neck as well as puts the single truss rod method of reinforcement at its limits. ........
[/quote]

This is interesting, I was talking to Bernie Goodfellow and he said that routing a slot for a second truss rod takes almost as much strength out of the neck as the second truss rod adds. Although he does build his necks out of several laminates of expensive wood so that probably helps structurally over a one piece.

[zipideebass]

Just a thought, with my 5 stringers I tend to use a 130-135 low B and a standard 4 string set that suits. Dont think I use the B as much as I might but it seems to last longer and doesnt stretch the neck as much. Also the thicker B gauge gives tune at a lower tension.

Sorry if all this is 'eggs for Granny' thought I might chip in.

[TomRichards]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1337183421' post='1656830']
This is interesting, I was talking to Bernie Goodfellow and he said that routing a slot for a second truss rod takes almost as much strength out of the neck as the second truss rod adds. Although he does build his necks out of several laminates of expensive wood so that probably helps structurally over a one piece.
[/quote]

Bernie is correct. Anytime you take something structural away from the neck, you take away strength. Its intuitive. The more holes I drill in a piece of wood, the less strong it will get. It also depends on how you are using the double rods. Most installations are probably parallel. Makers with higher string ERBs often use diagonal dual truss rods. My engineering head says that while you are removing the same amount of wood, you aren't doing it all in one place, distributing the defect, as you will.

Of course, to a degree, the loss of strength from the rout is balanced by the strength of the rod. clearly steel and metals can be vastly stronger then wood, and many builders are even using carbon reinforcements for strength over weight. Phil Kubicki uses the 34 laminate neck on the Ex-Factors specifically to add strength to counter act the pull of the strings on the neck of his basses as they do experience a higher tension at the head then a normal bass.

I deally you would thicken the neck as you go wider, but then they would be unplayable. So it remains, the wider the neck, the thickness to width profile gets smaller, the more susceptible to the stresses of string tension. And contrary to popular belief, its NOT the 135 you should be worrying about, its the G which is probably a 50, 0r 55. That is where the tension really lies. You could of course increase the rod diameter as you go up, but no one really does that. So you wind up with a rod optimized for 4 string width and tensions trying to counteract another string and more tension over a wider area. However, again, normally it should not be an issue.

There are sooooo many factors. Fretboard wood (Maple vs. rosewood vs. ebony vs. ebonol vs phenolic) glue strength, direction of the neck wood cut (flat sawn vs quarter sawn, etc.), number of laminates, and yes, even the finish adds some strength. So it becomes tougher to tell, but usually its workable by focusing on the truss rod. A properly working truss rod can cure many neck ills. If they couldn't, there wouldn't be a cheap import that was playable, IMHO.

Obviously, when the wood is unfinished, its more susceptible to moisture then finished wood, just like a hardwood floor. Finished woods are more humidity resistant. And as I said, some finishes even add strength, as the coating itself has some strengthening properties.

If I had a dealer in the UK I'd send you a Brubaker so you could send your MM out to pasture, but alas, the shops over there have not yet succumbed to my charm.

If you have any issues, just keep posting them here. Kevin Brubaker and I will look at them and if we can add anything to help you, we will.

[Fat Rich]

Good stuff, thanks for the insight!

[bigsmokebass]

[quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1337185994' post='1656885']
There are sooooo many factors. Fretboard wood (Maple vs. rosewood vs. ebony vs. ebonol vs phenolic) glue strength, direction of the neck wood cut (flat sawn vs quarter sawn, etc.), number of laminates, and yes, even the finish adds some strength. So it becomes tougher to tell, but usually its workable by focusing on the truss rod. A properly working truss rod can cure many neck ills. If they couldn't, there wouldn't be a cheap import that was playable, IMHO.[/quote]

Im not saying it hasnt been done before, but, Isn't this what Yamaha have touched upon with thier BB2024/5 models?
Also, out of interest which finish/eis are the best?
I have my fingers crossed for sunburst ^_^

[quote name='TomRichards' timestamp='1337185994' post='1656885']
If I had a dealer in the UK I'd send you a Brubaker so you could send your MM out to pasture, but alas, the shops over there have not yet succumbed to my charm.

If you have any issues, just keep posting them here. Kevin Brubaker and I will look at them and if we can add anything to help you, we will.
[/quote]

If anything, Bass Direct would be your best chance of getting into the UK as far as I can tell you but no doubt it's easier said than done. Would be a major relief to retire this current beast and have something more reliable and prestigious as a Brubaker

I'll keep posted but thank you In advance and for all said upto now.

BSB

[Lfalex v1.1]

Oddly, I've never experienced any obvious issues with necks.
This is quite ironic, given that my third bass was (and still is) a Vigier Passion 5 series 3. One of the main reasons I bought it was to alay my (then) fears about truss rod problems.
Since then, I've bought another ten or so basses of (generally) more traditional construction and none have been problematic.
I had an SR5 (fretless) myself but the neck was finished with their usual gunstock oil. The only truss rod adjustment I made was when I elected to re-string it EADGC. I tightened it a little to compensate for the higher overall tension compared to BEADG tuning.
As for fretboards, one known concern is related to the use of wooden 'boards on composite necks. There is potential for a wooden board to expand or contract to a considerably greater degree than the neck. This is why phenolic boards are so common on composite-necked basses.

I'm not absolutely sure about the GB take on wood removal. If it's to accomodate a second T-rod, then I can see the logic.
If it's for the installation of reinforcement bars which will stabilise the neck further (especially if they're bonded in place), then I'm less convinced.

[Geek99]

[quote name='bigsmokebass' timestamp='1337194326' post='1657040']

If anything, Bass Direct would be your best chance of getting into the UK as far as I can tell you but no doubt it's easier said than done. Would be a major relief to retire this current beast and have something more reliable and prestigious as a Brubaker

[/quote]
I already mentioned them and others to tom - sorry to hear he's had no luck

[bigsmokebass]

[quote name='Geek99' timestamp='1337250669' post='1657726']

I already mentioned them and others to tom - sorry to hear he's had no luck
[/quote]

Seriously? of all UK stores I thought this would be the one. Truly a shame

[lettsguitars]

Factory instruments are susceptible to flaws such as this. A machine churning out 200 necks a day cares not about grain orientation. You're bound to get the odd bad un, which i suspect is the reason behind your problem. There's a lesson here somewhere. Save the money you spend on overpriced clones and get yoursenz a quality original handmade guitar.

[bigsmokebass]

well that goes without saying but i thought Ernie Ball MusicMan would have some standards!

i've seen the videos for Fender, Peavey and Gibson guitars. about 20 identical git's being made at the same time: all the same cheap stock hardware, slabs of wood thrown into machines, the same burst or solid spray and lacquers/coatings . . . far from the quality you'd think your getting when your paying £500 upwards but i genuinely thought once your over the £1,000-£1,500 mark your guitars had a bit more quality with woods, hardware and craftsmanship.

wood is wood at the end of the day, never 2 guitars are 100% the same. even from the same line or made just after the other.

[JTUK]

[quote name='lettsguitars' timestamp='1337253755' post='1657840']
Factory instruments are susceptible to flaws such as this. A machine churning out 200 necks a day cares not about grain orientation. You're bound to get the odd bad un, which i suspect is the reason behind your problem. There's a lesson here somewhere. Save the money you spend on overpriced clones and get yoursenz a quality original handmade guitar.
[/quote]

There is something in this....but you are always at the mercy of the wood choice and availability anyway..

As a matter of course..I would add graphite bars to 5 st necks esp if they are pretty thin.. but I do believe that storage and temps can help.
or just get to grips with baseball bat necks

FWIW..my old MM's neck was bombproof and as solid as a rock..but I strung it with 100-40's and and always packed it away flat.

[dub]

A very good luthier told me of a way to re-set a neck that is bowed.
First of all make sure that the truss rod is not threaded or damaged as that could be the cause.
Take the neck off, slacken off the truss rod completely, then clamp the neck over a jig with a very slight curve the (exact opposite of the bow in the neck) then use halogen lights to heat the fingerboard while protecting the edges with foil.
You've got to be very careful not to over heat it or bend it back too far. Let it cool while still clamped, then re-tension the truss rod, put it on the bass, string it up and check it. Repeat if necessary.
I think it is something for someone that has experience in this method, but it is possible to fix a bowed neck.

In the meantime, try a bit more tension in the truss rod and hang the bass from an instrument hanger. it may improve slightly over time. You shouldn't hang it anywhere too damp or too dry like near a radiator.

Edited May 18, 2012 by dub

[glefty]

My '02 MM Sterling 4 has an unfinished one piece birds eye maple neck & fretboard which is susceptible to slight tuning ups & downs when going from the house to car to venue, no air con v air con, which manifests in slight bowing at times. An easy fix at the truss rod for me but nonetheless noticeable. A rosewood board or a 2 piece maple neck/board would add a layer of laminate & improve stability I'd guess.

[stingrayPete1977]

Im not sure about all this laquered finish or not being such a factor, I have had an unfinished 02 Ray that was solid, yet my pre EB with its original unbroken finish needs a tweek now and again. My 2 Ray 5's are also fine so far and all three are hanging in a row on hooks in the same room.

[glefty]

One question: wouldn't lighter strings alleviate neck stress as there would be less tension needed to get the string tauter & in tune?

[geoffbyrne]

Does a couple of coats of Gun or Tung oil make any difference?

G.

[drTStingray]

Interesting you have this problem.

FWIW I don't think the oil and wax finish makes any difference - I have several and they behave no differently from the MM basses I have with finished necks. You may have a neck problem but it may equally be affected by string choice.

I had a similar problem to you when I strung my SR5 with Rotosound Jazz Bass flats - standard guage - what had hitherto been a great bass with a fast neck became virtually unplayable because the string tension was so great. Not only did it increase the back bow but the strings were so taught it was actually painful to play, and frankly impossible to play any line with any intricasy or speed involved.

A while back I found out that EBMM ship their 4 string basses with 100/80/65/45 strings so I now string my 5s with 125/100/80/65/45 (currently have DR Marcus Miller signature on my SR5 which sound great) and this helps not only any tension issues, but also helps to balance the sound of the B and E strings better against the rest of the bass - at some amp EQ settings the B and E strings especially can overpower - I wouldn't put more than a 130 on a 5 string bass simply because the sound might be overwhelming.

The Roto flats got moved to my SR4 fretless where they were also not good for the same reason - I subsequently discovered Ernie Ball Group 3 flatwounds which have the same tension more or less as roundwounds and are a joy to play.

I would suggest that string tension may affect 5 string basses more than 4s simply because of the extra forces involved - a civil engineer mate once said when inspecting my bass, those 5th strings look like they could support a bridge - and that was in 125 form!

[bigsmokebass]

The Roto's I have set on it haven't only released tension in the neck but also sound and feel great on this bass.

I thought at the time, using EB strings would benefit this a lot, as you imagine the manufacturer would know a lot about thier instruments and strings . . .

I know in the guitar world, these are pretty top ranking but as far as basses, has anyone else had problems with these strings?

Roto's forever

BSB

[stingrayPete1977]

I love Roto's!!!!!!................ for a week