Good "Standard" Jazz electric bass players

[Faithless]

Ffs, of course it does.


As Doddy mentioned though, you don't wanna start learning from this, as it's way too complex - though, as a long-term goal (it takes years), you want to be able to play and think at these kind of tempos. Just look at Pope - he looks like he's having a walk in the park when playing the head with Corea, and then walking the line, and then he manages to pick his nose from time to time during his solo.... ok, well not really..
Pope must have spent thousand of hours working out this kind of stuff, so remember to take your time when working on stuff, and be patient - it's a path of a tortoise, not the hare.

easy
L

[Faithless]

[quote name='Doddy' timestamp='1331584725' post='1575443']
Yeah that's Mike Pope.... ridiculously good player.
[/quote]

I thought his main job was to make preamps for Fodera....

[Doddy]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1331586494' post='1575487']
I thought his main job was to make preamps for Fodera....
[/quote]

You mean when he's not designing and making expensive preamps,he plays stupidly good electric
and upright bass with some of the biggest names in jazz.

Clever bugger.

[funkypenguin]

John Patitucci. IMO the best jazz bassist, electric and upright currently playing and good enough to give any of the older greats (chambers/mingus etc) a run for their money

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFVyia5x2uk[/media]

nuff said

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RUHCt3jzyo

hes on upright on this vid but i think its every bit as valuable listening to the feel that upright players get, he's really swinging here

Edited March 13, 2012 by funkypenguin

[daz]

To my mind it seems to be the [i]definition[/i] of 'swing' thats being argued over here. (Swing, to me means 1930's 40's Count Basie, Benny Goodman type stuff.)

Just out of interest what type of bass does the OP play ?

Edited March 13, 2012 by daz

[Bilbo]

One of those electrical ones....

I'm not really of the view that you can't swing on eb, just that you can swing a lot [i]more[/i] on db. Playing fast tunes, like 'Match', it is easier to pull it off but, playing a slow blues or a ballad is massively more convincing on db. Its not tha you can't do it on eb, just that its a lot less satisfying to listen to and play over. I used to think that jazz musicians preference for db was prejudice and tradition but, as I have got older, I have realised it is about the music and, for a lot of jazz, eb will always compromise the intentions of the composer or MD. You can play a form os swing on eb but, it you want the real deal, its db all they way.

I think there is a similar argument with pianists. They all have an electric pianno for gigs but every one of them would drop it for a real piano every time because it is better suited to the genre.

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1331620265' post='1575848']
Onr od those electrical ones....

I'm not really of the view that you can't swing on eb, just that you can swing a lot [i]more[/i] on db. Playing fast tunes, like 'Match', it is easier to pull it off but, playing a slow blues or a ballad is massively more convincing on db. Its not tha you can't do it on eb, just that its a lot less satisfying to listen to and play over. I used to think that jazz musicians preference for db was prejudice and tradition but, as I have got older, I have realised it is about the music and, for a lot of jazz, eb will always compromise the intentions of the composer or MD. You can play a form os swing on eb but, it you want the real deal, its db all they way.

I think there is a similar argument with pianists. They all have an electric pianno for gigs but every one of them would drop it for a real piano every time because it is better suited to the genre.
[/quote]

Substitute the word timbre (and the way it's crafted) for swing and there you have it, at least to my ears.

[Bilbo]

Timbre.... yes, that's it.

[Faithless]

I was gonna say the same thing then, if we're so 'dedicated' about having the right 'timbre' and the right swing', then we'd refuse to play with guitards that don't play hollow-bodies, piano players who don't play the 'real' piano (how about bringing one to the gig? ), and drummers that don't own one of these sweet kits:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Jazzing_orchestra_1921.png

The [i]right [/i]timbre, oh yeah..

Edited March 13, 2012 by Faithless

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='Faithless' timestamp='1331640715' post='1576282']
I was gonna say the same thing then, if we're so 'dedicated' about having the right 'timbre' and the right swing', then we'd refuse to play with guitards that don't play hollow-bodies, piano players who don't play the 'real' piano (how about bringing one to the gig? ), and drummers that don't own one of these sweet kits:
[url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Jazzing_orchestra_1921.png"]http://upload.wikime...hestra_1921.png[/url]

The [i]right [/i]timbre, oh yeah..
[/quote]

Sorry but I wasn't trying to be pretentious

In my own personal opinion, an electric bass can't substitute for a double bass in some musical forms because it's a very different sounding instrument. The notes may be the same but the timbre (the correct musical term btw) is quite different.

It's not down to how well an electric bass is played either, it could as well be a bloody harpsichord as it doesn't fit the musical form, in my opinion of course. One of the video's above demonstrated this perfectly.

The same of course applies the other way. It's not pretentious to suggest that a db wouldn't sound right in 'London's Burning' for example?

Peter

[Bilbo]

We can only control what we can control. We compromise on a massive amount of what we do: how many of us have all of the players we would like, a great sounding room, an attentive audience etc. But there are some pretty basic 'can do's'. A tenor saxophone instead of an alto, a flute on this tune, a flugelhorn on that one. If you want a hollow-body guitar and there is a legitimate musical reason for it, then that's what you should have. An alto flute instead of a concert one. An electric guitar with single coil pick ups not humbuckers? Its all legitimate. Pat Metheny insists his drummers use Zildjan cymbals. Its his call.

And, if I want to swing, a double bass.....

I can do it on electric (just as a head for flute would probably be OK on sax, or a trumpet part on flugelhorn) but, like everything else, why would I do that if I can do it better on the double bass? And why book an electric if you want a double bass, anymore than you would book a trumpeter instead of a sax player? Compromise is inevitable but why would you if you didn't have to? The 'swing' achieved on electric is ok, its 'good enough' for most things and for certain audiences but, for me, that's all it is; ok, good enough, adequate. It's rarely perfect. Bit of a shallow victory, isn't it?

I think there is a tendency amoung electric players who don't play double bass to think that the instruments are all but interchangeable simply because they want them to be. I know because that was my justification for two decades. But the two instruments are different. Electric is better for some genres and DB for others. If you want arco bass, you don't book an electric. If you want slap bass, you don't book a double bass. When you want swing, take my advice, book a double bass and save yourself a lot of the time and frustration I experienced in the past.

[4000]

A very interesting thread. On a personal level, speaking as someone who quite literally grew up listening to swing (or certainly hearing it every single day from birth well into my late teens), I have to agree wholeheartedly with Bilbo. I've yet to hear an electric player that captures that feel precisely. As for players like Jeff and Laurence, miles off IMO.

[funkypenguin]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1331642941' post='1576355']
We can only control what we can control. We compromise on a massive amount of what we do: how many of us have all of the players we would like, a great sounding room, an attentive audience etc. But there are some pretty basic 'can do's'. A tenor saxophone instead of an alto, a flute on this tune, a flugelhorn on that one. If you want a hollow-body guitar and there is a legitimate musical reason for it, then that's what you should have. An alto flute instead of a concert one. An electric guitar with single coil pick ups not humbuckers? Its all legitimate. Pat Metheny insists his drummers use Zildjan cymbals. Its his call.

And, if I want to swing, a double bass.....

I can do it on electric (just as a head for flute would probably be OK on sax, or a trumpet part on flugelhorn) but, like everything else, why would I do that if I can do it better on the double bass? And why book an electric if you want a double bass, anymore than you would book a trumpeter instead of a sax player? Compromise is inevitable but why would you if you didn't have to? The 'swing' achieved on electric is ok, its 'good enough' for most things and for certain audiences but, for me, that's all it is; ok, good enough, adequate. It's rarely perfect. Bit of a shallow victory, isn't it?

I think there is a tendency amoung electric players who don't play double bass to think that the instruments are all but interchangeable simply because they want them to be. I know because that was my justification for two decades. But the two instruments are different. Electric is better for some genres and DB for others. If you want arco bass, you don't book an electric. If you want slap bass, you don't book a double bass. When you want swing, take my advice, book a double bass and save yourself a lot of the time and frustration I experienced in the past.
[/quote]

This +1

[Faithless]

[quote name='GreeneKing' timestamp='1331642264' post='1576331']
Sorry but I wasn't trying to be pretentious

In my own personal opinion, an electric bass can't substitute for a double bass in some musical forms because it's a very different sounding instrument. The notes may be the same but the timbre (the correct musical term btw) is quite different.

It's not down to how well an electric bass is played either, it could as well be a bloody harpsichord as it doesn't fit the musical form, in my opinion of course. One of the video's above demonstrated this perfectly.

The same of course applies the other way. It's not pretentious to suggest that a db wouldn't sound right in 'London's Burning' for example?

Peter
[/quote]

I'm truly sorry if my last post seemed a bit harsh, it wasnt pointed at you though, at all, Peter.
I agree to a certain extent that db is more suitable thing for swing, but at this day and age, I think, we should worry more about content rather than aesthetics.

As for myself - Rob, I can see what you're saying about being able to play a db - as I've said, I've experienced some odd moments myself with getting jazz gigs in the past, etc., but the main reason I refuse to play double bass (I've tried to learn it for some time in the past) is that my view on learning to play different instruments is that I either master it (to a certain extent), or I don't do it all. I've seen and heard way too many bad examples of people doubling on these two instruments, and moreover, I'd need another 24 hours in the day to truly learn the art of double bass, so I'll leave it at that.
At the same time, I cant still see any justice in that, when a guy (let's say, guitar, or keys player) insists you to play a db on a jazz gig, when himself doesn't 'mind' a Fender Strat or Nord keyboard, which is not really 'suitable' if we're sticking to the right 'timbre' and 'tradition'. Don't you agree?

easy
L

Edited March 13, 2012 by Faithless

[Bilbo]

I know what you mean but I suspect that, if a guitar player or piano player is looking for a jazz aesthetic and, for reasons of technology, has to use a less suitable instrument like a Nord, s/he is even MORE likely to want a DB to kind of 'cover up' for the fact that their guitar/piano sound is less than ideal for the idiom.

Re: the threat of doubling and its impact on your progress on your main instrument. I had a similar perspective on my guitar playing and gave it up to 'concentrate' on electric bass but, as time passed, I realised that I already had more technique than I could use musically and that the techniques required to play the instruments competently were not that hard to acquire. What mattered was the music itself and learning about harmony, orchestration, composition etc became more important to me than two handed tapping or chordal bass features. Its probably heresy to say this here but the bass is less important to me than the music. I watch these monster players and there is always a kid in me that goes 'Wow! I wish I coudl do that' but my rational side quickly realigns my thinking and directs me towards composing etc.

I saw a video yesterday of the younger Stinnet playing Chick Corea's solo off 'Got A Match'. Not Patitucci's lines but Corea's solo. It was an amazing achievement but utterly futile. That much technique has, for me, become a circus act and a parody of itself. SO I no longer strive for that but for writing the greatest music I possibly can. My technique has suffered and I have less now than I have had in the past but, so far, that hasn't manifested itself on a gig.

[Earbrass]

What about using a Kala U-bass?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNPx6RS8PiM

[Bilbo]

Sure.... that'll get the fire started...

[Doddy]

The key word in the last few posts for me,has been timbre. Like I said earlier,it's not that you
can't swing on the electric bass...it's more that because of the physical properties of the Double
Bass,the notes have a completely different envelope to them than the electric bass and people
often mistake this for 'swing'.
I play both instruments often and feel that I can swing on both (so I've been told),but when
playing straight ahead Jazz I feel more comfortable and prefer the sound and feel of the
Upright-it also changes my approach and note choices. Some people prefer what I do on
Electric,others prefer the Upright....it's how it goes.

It's the same way that you get some really swinging organ trios....check out players like
Larry Goldings and Joey DeFrancesco-they play some great left hand walking bass lines
on the organ,and they swing like crazy,but it sounds and feels different than an Upright
because of the whole timbre of the instrument.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1331649183' post='1576528']
Sure.... that'll get the fire started...
[/quote]



Is it just because it doesn't look right, or are they really no good? I just thought it got closer to a db sound than an eb can, but eb skills would be much more easily transferrable.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Earbrass' timestamp='1331649673' post='1576534']
Is it just because it doesn't look right, or are they really no good? I just thought it got closer to a db sound than an eb can, but eb skills would be much more easily transferrable.
[/quote]
I played one briefly the other day and I wouldn't be happy to take one on a jazz gig...it just didn't
sound or feel right. Personally,I prefer the sound of my Ashbory over the Kala,but it is still no
substitute for an Upright bass,again because of the sheer physical properties of the instruments.

[Bilbo]

The sound of the left hand on an organ or of Steve Swallow's picked bass are more closely linked to that of the double bass timbre we are discussing, as is the lower end of an ERB which is why they work. A lot of electric players use a sound that is not suitable for swing; Jeff Berlin is most certainly one of them. For the record, there are also plenty of recordings of double bass players that fail to swing because their sound is not in the right sonic space (this was a major problem in the 70s whern an lot of DB players were using pick-ups for the first time and engineers were 'DI-ing' basses without really knowing what to do with the results! The recorded sound using these methods, whilst possibly ok for fusion, was not 'de rigueur' for jazz and led to the Marsalis 'dreaded bass-direct' prejudice).

[BottomE]

I have only limited experience of playing electric bass alongside jazz standards and a lot of the time i use the Abersol tracks and pan the original DB out of the mix. I don't have a DB and when i substitue an electric bass and play the same line as the original DB there is definitely something missing (apart from my technique) tonally. It is particularly noticeable on slower tunes.

If i forget about the original line and play something that fits which suits my style (electric bass) the difference is not so great.

[chris_b]

I thought jazz was about open minds, experimentation and expanding new horizons.

Seems like it's in the same "traditional" rut as all other forms of music.

[Doddy]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1331655016' post='1576663']
I thought jazz was about open minds, experimentation and expanding new horizons.

Seems like it's in the same "traditional" rut as all other forms of music.
[/quote]

We're not talking about new horizons. The OP specifically mention walking over standards.
In more modern 'jazz' there is a lot more experimentation.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1331655016' post='1576663']
I thought jazz was about open minds, experimentation and expanding new horizons.

Seems like it's in the same "traditional" rut as all other forms of music.
[/quote]

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

The discussion is about 'swing' in the context of jazz standards. Swing is what it is. Jazz is a much bigger genre than just standards and walking bass lines, although 'swing' plays a massive part is all of it. The concept of 'swing' is a lot more sophistiacetd now and means a lot more than straight walking quarter note bass lines. Jazz is so not in a rut at the moment. Its flourishing massively.