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ethical responsibility from high end luthiers


Jimmyp28
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Ok a lot to get through here but lets give it a go and see what happens then.

I was never accusing all lutihers at having capitalistic greed in the centre of their motivations, I was accusing the big brands in boutique market. As I said before I do still think these are amazing instruments but I still can find no reason why some of these basses are worth so much more.

If it happens to be the Veblen good effect then that is my answer I guess. Personally not good enough for me but that is my opinion and you may criticize that if you wish.

So this is what am going to do about it then as you all have given me some really good ideas.

I will put my money where my mouth is and start (trying to) making basses, this will give me a very good idea about cost,time and skill that all goes into making bass guitars.

And I guess at the heart of it I was looking for some reason why something costed so much more to understand why some of the brands I mentioned where charging so much, I mean a quantifiable difference in them that justifies their price.

If some of these basses are so amazing and so much skill has been put into them surly then they could stand up against some scrutiny and then in turn to prove that they really are worthy of commanding a price tag so high as they are with out a doubt so recognisable and could to some possible degree warrant their price? And how you ask? Well I have an idea and when it is more concise I will post it and see what people think.

This is the real point I was trying to get at then, When you buy these items are you really paying for the skill,time labour attention to detail or are you just buying into the idea of said items being cooler and more exclusive, a brand which is more elitists by its very definition and by the fact the charge is so much more.

Would some of you buy a guitar which cost lots less and made to same skill as these items which has been mentioned or would it not contest purely because the brand?

I understand now that some people believe in the ideals of a free market and the ideals of supply and demand and that is great, thats why I posted this to try and understand other peoples opinions as I knew how I felt about this.

Yes and to some degree me saying its purely capitalistic greed on there part was some what unfair and extreme am aware of that and can admit when am wrong.

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[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1327452932' post='1511685']
The only ethical issues involved are the wood sources.

Have a look at the ethics of the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the technology you use, and get back on here for a chat mate. Cheap sh*t is where the ethical problems usually lie.
[/quote]

+1 to this.

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[quote name='machinehead' timestamp='1327450652' post='1511635']
Read this....

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good"]http://en.wikipedia....iki/Veblen_good[/url]

Frank.
[/quote]

Not sure about the Veblen effect as it relates to bass guitars, but the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect]Bandwagon Effect[/url] certainly plays its part around here quite frequently! :D

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[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1327654663' post='1514703']
Is this troll-inspired thread really still going on?

Jimmy the SWP Fan-boy was clearly just seeing how far he could push a piece of arrogant tripe before he got flamed.

Well, now he knows, and we know.

Move on people, nothing to see here.
[/quote]

What is an SWP ?

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i was all into thinking there would be a massive profit in custom built basses until checking the fodera web site and speaking as an ex cabinet maker and furniture sprayer i can tell you there has been weeks if not months of time spent on those instruments not to mention the design and emails being bounced back and forth

personaly i would not pay over 1k for a bass but thats because i just play for my own pleasure and there is no return as such for me however i do invest in my own business for tools and vans and as a sole trader spent over 10k last year so if i was a full time player making a living i would definatly have a bass made just for that perfect neck profile the pick ups electrics ect and of course the killer finish

edit not to mention claiming some back off the tax man :P

Edited by mushers
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[quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327655754' post='1514720']
Would some of you buy a guitar which cost lots less and made to same skill as these items which has been mentioned [/quote]

You mean like the £1000 Wal copy your luthier built for you? Any chance of some pics, specs and contact details? :)

As for the bassmaking, I note you posted a while ago about sourcing timber for such a project. Is this thread - in part - about researching a product price point? If so, there are less painful ways of going about it. :lol: :)

Edited by skankdelvar
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[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1327672031' post='1515136']
You mean like the £1000 Wal copy your luthier built for you? Any chance of some pics, specs and contact details? :)

As for the bassmaking, I note you posted a while ago about sourcing timber for such a project. Is this thread - in part - about researching a product price point? If so, there are less painful ways of going about it. :lol: :)
[/quote]

Am sure my luthier will be posting some of his work within on this site soon, but am sure he would not want to be associated with me after this :lol:

And I did not go for the Wal in the end though.

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[quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327672755' post='1515156']
Am sure my luthier will be posting some of his work within on this site soon, but am sure he would not want to be associated with me after this :lol:
[/quote]

Sorry Jimmy, I slipped with the hacksaw. Don't suppose you'll mind if it looks more Steinberger than Wal do you?

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[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1327479547' post='1511789']
I don't think many people are getting rich building high-end instruments. My brother is a luthier, building classical guitars at 3k to 3.5k a time. The business is ticking over nicely, but he doesn't have a particularly lavish lifestyle and probably works longer and takes home less than your average skilled worker. While there are fewer man-hours in most electric basses, I suspect the smaller bass outfits operate in a similar way. I think we're just not used to paying developed-country wages for manufactured goods any more.
[/quote]

I read an article recently about Pete Skjold, and he said that he does what he does for the love of building, not because he makes lots of money, and said that the profit margin isn't as high as most people think. You might have a point with Fodera though, their price list is more likely that of a car showroom than a luthier. :o

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Whilst the boutique makers are coming up with amazing new basses there has never been a better time to buy a starter bass. I know that's due to more efficient manufacturing, but It's worth noting that design and innovation at the top end of the market filter down and benefit the lower end
The new budget basses are unreal.

If top end basses were necessary for progression as a musician I might understand your view better. Not having one doesn't restrict you in any way.

The prices of the boutique makers only effect people who choose to buy them. Their innovation and design helps everyone.

Edited by geoffbassist
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[quote name='bassist_lewis' timestamp='1327677979' post='1515271']
I read an article recently about Pete Skjold, and he said that he does what he does for the love of building, not because he makes lots of money, and said that the profit margin isn't as high as most people think. You might have a point with Fodera though, their price list is more likely that of a car showroom than a luthier. :o
[/quote]

Again, think about where they are based. I know someone who works in New York and apparently the competition for business space is unbelievable, and the rent astronomical in comparison to the UK (even London). Then there is their overhead, which again will cost a huge amount of money. Their materials are the best money can buy, some of which are nearly unobtainable nowadays. Each bass takes months to build, requiring extensive hand time and finishing. Then there is their own rent and living costs. They dont make a huge profit margin, contrary to popular belief.....

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[quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327655754' post='1514720']
Ok a lot to get through here but lets give it a go and see what happens then.

I was never accusing all lutihers at having capitalistic greed in the centre of their motivations, I was accusing the big brands in boutique market. As I said before I do still think these are amazing instruments but I still can find no reason why some of these basses are worth so much more.

If it happens to be the Veblen good effect then that is my answer I guess. Personally not good enough for me but that is my opinion and you may criticize that if you wish.

So this is what am going to do about it then as you all have given me some really good ideas.

I will put my money where my mouth is and start (trying to) making basses, this will give me a very good idea about cost,time and skill that all goes into making bass guitars.

And I guess at the heart of it I was looking for some reason why something costed so much more to understand why some of the brands I mentioned where charging so much, I mean a quantifiable difference in them that justifies their price.

If some of these basses are so amazing and so much skill has been put into them surly then they could stand up against some scrutiny and then in turn to prove that they really are worthy of commanding a price tag so high as they are with out a doubt so recognisable and could to some possible degree warrant their price? And how you ask? Well I have an idea and when it is more concise I will post it and see what people think.

This is the real point I was trying to get at then, When you buy these items are you really paying for the skill,time labour attention to detail or are you just buying into the idea of said items being cooler and more exclusive, a brand which is more elitists by its very definition and by the fact the charge is so much more.

Would some of you buy a guitar which cost lots less and made to same skill as these items which has been mentioned or would it not contest purely because the brand?

I understand now that some people believe in the ideals of a free market and the ideals of supply and demand and that is great, thats why I posted this to try and understand other peoples opinions as I knew how I felt about this.

Yes and to some degree me saying its purely capitalistic greed on there part was some what unfair and extreme am aware of that and can admit when am wrong.
[/quote]

I really really do not understand where you are coming from. I think some books on what branding is and what it isn't, and how business works may be more useful if you want answers to your questions than random statements as questions on a forum.
You seemingly have little understanding of how branding works, how business works or how specialist manufacture of specialist tools work. You approach it from a very end user approach, that brands are a label for a generic good which is essentially the same regardless of brand. Any difference is then branding. It possibly works for supermarkets or razor blades but I think bass guitars are possibly different.
I wonder how you plan on working outwith the confine of our general capitalism?

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I skipped through a few pages, but has anyone mentioned it's a market, yet?

I find that people are often frustrated when trying to apply their own moral and ethical outlook on to a market - it works in some cases, but 9 times out of 10. I like the mention of Veblen goods, as this would be a good example - they hold a value above and beyond the sum of their parts, or necessarily the means of their creation.

However, having spent a week with a top UK luthier, I can confirm that a massive - massive! - amount of work goes into these instruments.

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[quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327672755' post='1515156']
Am sure my luthier will be posting some of his work within on this site soon, but am sure he would not want to be associated with me after this :lol:
[/quote]

That's good. The more UK luthiers around the better for all of us. Particularly if the £ goes through the floor and US gear becomes beyond the reach of all but the very well-heeled.

[quote name='Jimmyp28' timestamp='1327655754' post='1514720']
Veblen good effect [/quote]
[quote name='Gwilym' timestamp='1327656456' post='1514734']
Not sure about the Veblen effect
[/quote]

So these Veblen effects. Anyone tried them? Because I'm after an analogue type delay, see.

[color=#ffffff].[/color]

Edited by skankdelvar
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Hi Jimmy
I have a Skjold and a Nordy which are both relatively expensive basses, but both are worth the money in my opinion. There will always be people who put more or less value on money, I would be less inclined to buy a Fodera for example, as they are charging too much even accounting for their geographical location imho. To me it says more about the luthier than the bass so I'd rather not buy their goods.

On the other hand I would hope people can make a comfortable living for their expertise, as with everything there is probably a happy balance to be struck somewhere.

It is probably not worth getting involved in the ethics of things, I think that's a slippery slope ........

I am surprised at the response you have received........I don't think you've deserved it but maybe I'm too soft!

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I have to admit I haven't really posted on here other then to buy a couple of things, but this is truly shocking. I regard myself as a bit of an anarchist (a slightly more progressive one that believes in cooperative ownership, likes a bit of noam chomsky and stuff like that, not one of those idiots that goes round smashing things and wants everyones diets to comprise of nothing but bad quality lentil soups) but I see no sense in this at all. 3 things are true of most botuique builders:

1) They spend little or NO money on marketing, with most of these boutique makes bass, string, amp or whatever they rely on their repuation and word of mouth, I've been told on a few occasions when asking about some of these kind of products that I might NOT want to buy their product because it might not suit me, that's some crafty corporate brainwashing if I've heard heard of any...

2) They often either sell their products first hand, or the dealers are independent shops/online distributors that know what they're talking about. You don't exactly see any of this stuff turning up in places like the horrible american guitar centre, where it seems from what I've heard the staff are pretty clueless.

3) They are much more likely to source the parts they don't make for themselves from smaller suppliers, thus supporting small business, and in general seem to go more out of their way to use more ethical woods and all that kinda stuff.

4) The quality is just that much better and you get what you pay for, even though alot of manufactures don't charge as much, I'd say for certain that alot of the time a generous slice is marketing and profit. With these kinda manufacturers the cost is likely to go mostly on materials, labour and overheads, with next to nothing or nothing for marketing and probably nowhere near as much of a profit margin. Even if there was a decent profit in them I'd rather give my money to a manufacture that was actually spending the money I gave them on the product I'm gonna get, not just raving about how good it's supposed to be and then it not been...

Like people have pointed out already, I bet none of these manufacturers own a private jet or anything, and to repeat myself these companies are by far more ethical (as a huge generalisation) then people like fender, even if your paying much more.

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There is a market for every pocket. No luthier should be feeling guilty for producing high end instrument which are made with the most refined material just as McLaren shouldn't be feeling guilty about building their high quality sport cars. At the end of the day is down to how deep is your pocket and how much YOU can afford

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[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1327698685' post='1515721']




So these Veblen effects. Anyone tried them? Because I'm after an analogue type delay, see.

[color=#ffffff].[/color]
[/quote]

Apparently the Veblen analogue delay is quite good but a bit expensive for what you get. I think they may be trading on their name to a certain extent.

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If someone is building something for you and is making your life better, then he / she has the right to earn a living and support the family doing so.

As consumers, we believe we have the right to own any and all consumer goods we want. In my view, that is the problem with 21st century thinking and its what got us into this mess in the first place.

[quote name='silddx' timestamp='1327452932' post='1511685']
Have a look at the ethics of the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the technology you use, and get back on here for a chat mate. Cheap sh*t is where the ethical problems usually lie.
[/quote]

Edited by Mikey R
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