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The Stick Thread


prog_fiend

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10 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Having played the stick a bit now, from people who had never played one at all, I am guessing hardly at all!

 

Or more accurately, attempt Elephant Talk!

It's no Jeremy, that's for sure...

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16 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Yay!

IMG_5543.thumb.jpg.f0f110ddd07cf776214d8bd4dcad023b.jpg

What’s going on with the inlays on your Stick- kind of almost looks like double frets at each inlay position. Not seen one like that before. 

Also, is that the EMG pickups?

What tuning?

Lol- so many questions!

Enjoy it!

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3 hours ago, EMG456 said:

What’s going on with the inlays on your Stick- kind of almost looks like double frets at each inlay position. Not seen one like that before. 

The previous owner had problems seeing the frets / rails, so he put a piece of white tape before every single one. I don't really like the look of it, but until I can actually play the thing, i am not sure I don't need that, so I have yet to take them off, apart from where he put doubles, which was just confusing.

Hopefully I will take them off soon.

3 hours ago, EMG456 said:

Also, is that the EMG pickups?

All the railboards have villex pickups and filters. If you plug them into phantom power they are active, otherwise they aren't. But it is stereo and the filters are supposed to work both ways (tbh, hard to hear much difference).

3 hours ago, EMG456 said:

What tuning?

And that is where things got complicated. When I got it I was puzzled why the melody side was lower pitched than the bass side and after a few questions I found out that it was in dual bass reciprocal, where one side is a bass in 5ths and the other side is a bass in 4ths.

But I don't want that, I have basses, i wanted standard stick tuning so I have faffed around changing the strings, (i had some spares) as the gauges of the strings are like a closely guarded secret, but I didn't work it out and broke one. Why didn't I think of the d'addario tension calculator which lets you work out exactly what the strings should be.

Anyway, I am going to have to get some new strings, so i have the option of getting them from america for $50 + $23 + import and vat, + parcelforce benevolent fund fee, or go to everyones favourite Lancashire based string purveyor for a fair bit less!

Much against my real wishes I am not taking it to a gig tonight. I am sure I could work out mustang sally on it easy enough, but maybe that isn't the point :D

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

It never ceases to amaze me how that tone can emanate from something so relatively lightweight.

What's yours made of? It looks quite different to mine (in terms of wood)

In terms of wood, aluminium, its a railboard :D

Its not heavy as such it is just more physically imposing than I thought, with its wide neck and being pretty long.

But yes, until i can get some strings I can't really explore it much, also with a few gigs too. So far it is impressive but pretty opaque,  the left hand takes to it straight away, as you might expect, the right hand is much more 'what am I doing here!'

I figure I need to set myself some general tasks

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I couldn't tell it was Railboard from the photos..

I know exactly what you mean about the business with the left hand being entirely familiar (apart from the tuning), while the right hand is somewhat lost! That's one reason I went for Matched Reciprocal tuning.. it felt more familiar on the treble side.

I think mine is still running too much relief and that the action is still too high. I think a really good set-up will pay dividends, but I just haven't had the time.. It's not as though it's unplayable.

 

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No, it is the dark red one he got to look more like wood and I guess in photos it does, although it doesn't IRL. It was in dual bass reciprocal, designed for bass players but I didn't want a 'fancy bass' it has literally taken the money of that, I wanted standard tuning as I wanted to learn something new, but it mans I have to wait for the strings. 

I have the bass section sorted though so I am going to start there, and I figured I would apply the ideas from the SBL accelerator course to the stick!

my action is too high too, but until I have the right strings there is not much I can do about it - I have an email from Emmet Chapman telling me how to set it up, so I better get it done!

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Sounds as though you’re doing well with it- I couldn’t contemplate taking it to a gig for years!!

Interested to hear how you get on with the strings- I have so far bought them directly from the States several sets at a time. On the upside, they last me much longer than bass strings do.

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Oh I can't imagine I will be seriously gigging it for a while, I meant I couldn't play it as much as I wanted as I had a few general gigs to do, so I didn't have time.

I have at least started to get more familiar with it. I spent time yesterday making an HX Effects patch for it.

I ordered the strings from Netwone, who now have them on their website for £30 and £1.20 - for some reason getting information on strings is a bit restricted but the info is out there. 

Bit nervous about setting it up, but it is the most important thing.

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That's a great price from Newtone!

I've not really had to meddle much with the setup of mine - just the odd tweak to the truss every few weeks according to the weather. A Railboard might well be more stable generally.

The most irritating thing about the setup is the need to lift the string off the bridge saddle to adjust height. I've seen some players who have made up a little wire hook that lets you lift the strings on and off the saddle without de-tensioning them. I've never bothered but for a full setup with a radical change of strings, it might be worth your while to cobble something together.

Let us know how you get on.

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2 hours ago, EMG456 said:

That's a great price from Newtone!

It does seem good, especially when you consider their 5 string sets are around £30 and this is for 10 of them! The main saving though is the shipping and customs charges really.

2 hours ago, EMG456 said:

I've not really had to meddle much with the setup of mine - just the odd tweak to the truss every few weeks according to the weather. A Railboard might well be more stable generally.

I would assume so - it is a big old chunk of aluminium (well, its actually aluminum as its american), so can't imagine it is going to change much.

I still don't know how high the strings should be from the top of the rails, and how much bow you are supposed to have in a neck if any, I guess I will find out when they turn up.

 

2 hours ago, EMG456 said:

The most irritating thing about the setup is the need to lift the string off the bridge saddle to adjust height. I've seen some players who have made up a little wire hook that lets you lift the strings on and off the saddle without de-tensioning them

Yes.

One think I have thought about now having flitted around the edges of the stick community. Emmet is a friendly and very helpful guy (he has emailed me a number of times), as are a lot of the others, but there is some element of control you don't get in other instrument worlds. Obviously he designed this thing and makes them, and has a very vested interest in its development and guidance, and I am sure it is like this when an instrument starts up, but I think that maybe in years to come, when there are more around and the patents all expire, things like that bridge, the way it is strapped on, things like that are going to go the way of the dodo, because they aren't the best way of doing things. If other people had an input they would say, oh lets add this, or change that.

Like the bridge and pickups on a rickenbacker, it is a very early design and it is a bit flawed for a lot of people. If they had had the full rights to the bass, and noone could make one, there are many developments and maybe even styles of music that wouldn't develop.  OK, there are loads that like them apparently, which is fine, they are there for those people, but maybe there are loads of ways of playing a stick that aren't currently possible because all sticks have to be done this way?

I intend to make a strap the way that guy on youtube did his, because that makes a lot more sense to me, and I would certainly like the stand he had, it is a pain to play it sitting down!

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Lots of interesting thoughts and questions coming to the surface!

I'll chip in what I've gathered so far!

I think the bridge design is a function of the need to cram a lot of strings into a narrow overall width while still offering adjustment for height and intonation. One benefit is that  saddle height can be tweaked without tools. It's interesting to note that the Kahler bridge on my Vigier is like a bigger version..

I believe that the Stick should be as flat as possible, and that the action should be as low as possible- both to facilitate ease, speed and fluidity of play. Mine (Rosewood) seems to need very little tweaking.

In terms of a stand, I've seen modified cymbal stands used. Maybe a modified NS upright stand would be good. I think I'd try to make a snug-fitting pocket for the belt hook to slot into, so it could be played either way without too much fiddling about.

Could the stick be improved upon? I'm not sure!

Mass-production would undoubtedly make them cheaper and therefore more accessible, but I get the impression that Emmett has evolved the design considerably over the years due to his own desire to perfect the instrument, and I get the impression he's responded to a lot of feedback from players.

As for various playing styles, there are quite a few around that definitely don't adhere to the prescribed method!

Tony Levin often turns down the melody side and uses both hands on the bass side (as previously discussed) 

I gather Mike Oldfield has just used a plectrum as per a regular guitar.

Some (apparently) play percussively (slap?!)

I find playing "uncrossed" liberating when duplicating regular bass parts as my hands don't collide!

I might look into open tunings for the melody side- would a slide work, I wonder?

 

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I would like both the strap and the stand that this guy made:

The strap is easy (except getting the hook thing), the stand might take a bit more work.

So what sort of action do you have in mms, and it is consistent from the X to the 24th fret?

The thing I am concerned about with the bridge is that it says if using bass reciprocal contact them for longer bridge pins, but I don't have shorter bridge pins and I am going from bass reciprocal to standard. I guess I will find out. 

There are certainly a lot of playing styles! Almost a confusing amount when you start, as none of the starting things tell you where the notes are in case it is in another tuning.

I do find that starting up, some of the information that is available for other instruments - string height, string gauge, what the knobs on the pickup block do*, how flat the board should be etc is a bit hard to find. I know, low numbers of people but with so few people out there with one, I think there should be clearer info.

I also don't know what you could do to improve a stick, but I bet some people do.

 

I don't think a slide would work as is, because a slide needs pretty hard strings, otherwise you just bash off the frets. Like with a guitar, its hard to use a slide with light gauge strings, or very low action.

Talking about slides though:  

* yes, I have found that now, but didn't for a while.

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It’s a while ago now but I’ve owned two Sticks, one an old Zebrano 10-string and more recently a 12-string grand in rosewood. 

In terms of action and relief I’d be aiming for an almost (if not totally) flat board - not sure whether the tailboard has a truss rod, but as you’re tapping rather than plucking the strings don’t move nearly as much. The strings should then be basically as low as they can be without buzzing or choking - and a flat board will help with this as more consistent action top to bottom.

The lowest bass strings may need a small tweak up given their thicker diameter but not much - the idea is almost to be able to “press” the strings rather than whack them onto the board, and also helps enormously when playing anything legato. If it was set up as matched bass then you may need to request longer bridge pieces as indicated - I believe they use different-length pieces. What tuning are you going for out of interest? One of the things that has held the Stick back IMHO is the large variety of tunings. They’re all great but it makes it hard to get any standardised or common approach (and is not really reflected on any other instrument - whilst there are variations pretty much every stringed instrument has a most popular common tuning).

I had lessons from Jim Lampi, who really is excellent (and I believe started out on sax), and, hailing from California, I asked him why Emmett never opened up manufacturing to get a wider audience. I think the gist was that it is his business and he can maintain the quality by doing it all in-house, and didn’t feel the need to embark on “licensing” it or outsourcing manufacture.

I don’t have a Stick anymore but would love to get another one. It’s just a shame they’re relatively rare and hard to find.

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2 hours ago, FDC484950 said:

I don’t have a Stick anymore but would love to get another one. It’s just a shame they’re relatively rare and hard to find.

I hear this quite a lot. It seems that very few people stick with a stick, there are lots of "i usd to have one". So what made you get rid of your last ones?

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9 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I hear this quite a lot. It seems that very few people stick with a stick, there are lots of "i usd to have one". So what made you get rid of your last ones?

Both times I was intrigued by it but couldn’t get on with it. I think it requires quite dedicated practice, and not coming from a piano I struggled a bit with tapping with both hands. In retrospect I wish I’d kept it (especially the Grand Stick as I paid £2500 for it and ended up selling it for £1200!!) as it is the closest you can get to a keyboard range and facility with a stronger instrument and has a unique sound.

Do let me know how you get on - and I will keep an eye out on Stickist. Having got my last Stick from the US, I’d much prefer to source one in the U.K. as import charges really mount up.

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9 hours ago, TorturedSaints said:

Mine stays resolutely in its case unfortunately (the lack of time/lack of aptitude excuses apply here).

That doesn't seem uncommon for a lot of people. I think if mine gets to that point I will just sell it, as they are quite expensive things.

Currently I am still in the learning if I can do anything with it stage.

I noticed the one on ebay, don't see many of those and it seems all of my watches are still in place!

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Many (in particular it would seem bass players) buy assuming it will be easy enough as they've got the left hand going already. Unfortunately, the combination of tapping to sound the notes and a reversed 5ths tuning on the bass side quickly puts paid to those assumptions. So many languish in cases for years and are then sold on to the next optimist.

I'm an experienced, relaxed and confident bass player but I've had the Stick for over 10 years now and I still feel like a novice a lot of the time I'm playing.

On the up side, it's a beautiful sound and I have learnt so much about music in general and chord construction in particular by playing the Stick that it's a journey I'm happy to continue with. Don't think I'll ever be a virtuoso now though...LOL.

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I don't think I thought it'd be easy, but it does some things so well. And that tone!

It makes me think about what I'm playing. And it makes me consider theory when I haven't got it to hand- thinking about tunings and the like; I thought DBR played "uncrossed" might help me replicate the role of a bass better, but I couldn't tolerate the virtual redundancy of 4 of the strings. Even if it were tuned CGDEABF# , What would the other three do even if tuned in ascending fifths?

I think my ideal instrument might be an SB8 (the carbon one) tuned FCGDEABF#, so eight strings, parallel 4ths.

At the moment, I'm working on ideas for an adapter plate so I can mount it on the stand from my NS5 CR EUB..

That's what I like about the Stick.

It makes me think.

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