2x10 or 1x15

[Bass-ic]

so!
In my quest to get my new passion of playing the bass sorted, i have started looking at a combo amp, as a head and so on seems highly expensive to start with.
What, if any are the advantages of getting different speaker sizes, ie 10, 12, or 15 inch cones?
cheers
Matt

[gary mac]

Hey Matt.

Guess it will be dependent on what sort of sound you want, the type of material you play and the venues to be played in, but also the other musicians you are playing with.

I mostly use a combo that is fitted with a 15" speaker. Generally I find it makes the sound I want, but on occassions lacks top end definition and sounds a bit rumbley. So, I sometimes add my 2 x 10" cabinet which usually does the trick.

It's difficult to describe a sound, as we all perceive these things differently. But, generally 15" speakers will be deeper and more bassier. 10" brighter and carry the treble side of things.

I'm sure you will get better replies than this from the more technical on the forum, but hopefully my reply will get things started.

All the best Gary.

[markdabass]

Hi,

You don't say if this just for practice or for gigging, by my general feelings on the matter are, if for home go for the 2 x 10 you don't need to run them so hard to get a half decent sound, they have slightly less boom for a better word than the 1 x 15 if however your gigging then the 1 x 15 could be ok you tend to find the top end doesn't come through as much though. Personally I've got a 250W 2x10 Ashdown combo which is great for both home practice and small pubs etc, I also have an extra 1 x 15 extension cab if I need it, though again I've never needed to use it.

Hope that was of some help.

Mark

[Jono Bolton]

I prefer 10s, their punchier and if your amp's set up properly then there isn't too much of a loss of bass either. I used to have a Peavey combo with a 15" and didn't really like it, it was a bit too farty and with not much definition. This could've been because it was a bit cheap and my Ashdown rig isn't, but there is a big difference in sound between the two sizes. You really need to try out a few amps and find one that suits you and see what it is that you like. I have friend who uses a Hartke 2x15 monster cab but it's suited to his dub/punk-style playing.

[Bass-ic]

Hi
This is all good,
I havent really played any of these set ups yet as still use a combo at home which is Ok for practicing on. However, i do want to get something better eventually, but most probably when i can actually play the bass a bit better. I was just wondering about the difference.
Matt

[bass_ferret]

TBH it depends on so many variables and between different manufacturers it is really hard to give a definitive answer. Up until recently the choice was really between 10's and 15's. Some players said they preferred 10's because 15's were too slow to keep up with their playing but that was BS - he was going through the PA anyway and that was not all 10's.

It is simply not true that a 1x15 will always have more low end than a 2x10, and trying to reproduce the difference in frequency response will suck all of the power from your amp. 1x15 will often have a hole in the upper mid frequency response between the bass driver and the tweeter.

Mixing speaker sizes is not recommended by speaker guru's (or is that nerd's) but I cant find the references.

12's are making a bit of a comeback as well.

[paul, the]

Hey man,

Just in case no one else has said it: If you get a 210 combo, you could always get a fifteen (if that's what you want) later on and put it underneath. That way you should get the full power of the amp and a choice of tone. If you're in the cheap second-hand market, you'll be able to swap small cabs around with very little money loss. That way you can see what suits you when you come to upgrading.

'Though, money and music style is an important factor.

[bigjohn]

I find 15s a bit muddy. I don't find them any deeper.

I find 2x15 cabs even muddier. But 15s mixed with 10s are fine.

I've got a combo with a 15 and an 8 - and that is far from muddy. I really like it but it's not loud enough for my current drummer. Was great with my last one though. The 8" really provides the clarity and punch the 15 lacks.

I prefer 10s though now. I'm really not sure about 12s. I was thinking about going down the 12s route until I played with a Marshall 4x12. Not as good as their 4x10.

It's all personal though isn't it.

[Perry]

[quote name='paul, the' post='150594' date='Mar 3 2008, 07:25 PM']Hey man,

Just in case no one else has said it: If you get a 210 combo, you could always get a fifteen (if that's what you want) later on and put it underneath. That way you should get the full power of the amp and a choice of tone. If you're in the cheap second-hand market, you'll be able to swap small cabs around with very little money loss. That way you can see what suits you when you come to upgrading.

'Though, money and music style is an important factor.[/quote]


I'd also say the 2X10 combo then add a 1X15 if needed later.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='jono b' post='150358' date='Mar 3 2008, 02:30 PM']I prefer 10s, their punchier and if your amp's set up properly then there isn't too much of a loss of bass either. I used to have a Peavey combo with a 15" and didn't really like it, it was a bit too farty and with not much definition. This could've been because it was a bit cheap and my Ashdown rig isn't[/quote]
+1
15" Pervy combo - loud & muddy, ABM 2x10" combo +/- 2x10" extension cab - loud and clear but still a good low end. But ask 10 bassists and you'll get 30 answers. An hour in the demo room of your local store is the best way - you don't have to buy anything...

[bremen]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='150589' date='Mar 3 2008, 07:17 PM']TBH it depends on so many variables and between different manufacturers it is really hard to give a definitive answer. Up until recently the choice was really between 10's and 15's. Some players said they preferred 10's because 15's were too slow to keep up with their playing but that was BS - he was going through the PA anyway and that was not all 10's.

It is simply not true that a 1x15 will always have more low end than a 2x10, and trying to reproduce the difference in frequency response will suck all of the power from your amp. 1x15 will often have a hole in the upper mid frequency response between the bass driver and the tweeter.

Mixing speaker sizes is not recommended by speaker guru's (or is that nerd's) but I cant find the references.

12's are making a bit of a comeback as well.[/quote]

I'd agree with all the above (I'm 75% nerd, 26% guru and -1% mathematician by the way) but I don't see what's wrong with mixing speaker sizes? After all, you're going through the PA anyway and that's not all one speaker size ;-)

fwiw I use a 15 and an 8 with an active crossover, with an added 15 for bigger stages.

[bass_ferret]

But you are using a crossover - not putting the same signal through different cabs.

[bremen]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='151006' date='Mar 4 2008, 12:36 PM']But you are using a crossover - not putting the same signal through different cabs.[/quote]

ah, OK, I see. Yes, putting the same signal through different drivers could sound bad. Not necessarily though, you might get lucky if one has a weak mid and the other a peak just where the one is missing.


Active crossover is nice.

[Bass-ic]

Right, a few things here....
i am not a good enough player to actually stand in a shope and play something, err in fact, anything yet, soi do the research i can and then ask you lot cos youre all probably much much bettre players than I am.
But, i am liking the 2x10 to start with and then to add a 15.

Hmmm......i thought about asking about manufacturers..but i realise that this is purely personal , and i may actually need to go and embaress myself somewhere.
Yikes
Matt

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Absolute-beginner' post='151026' date='Mar 4 2008, 01:05 PM']Right, a few things here....
i am not a good enough player to actually stand in a shope and play somethin...[/quote]

In that case pick up a used amp from here, eBay or a local ad or shop. Run whatever it is by us so you can be confident you're getting a fair deal. Don't think too much about it, just buy an amp and then concentrate on playing. If in some years' (or months if you're terribly fussy) time you want something better you're unlikely to lose money upgrading because once an amp is secondhand, it's secondhand - they don't really depreciate any more than that, assuming you don't bash them around.

In answer to the original question, the difference between 2x10 and 1x15 is 5.

Alex

[phatbass787]

From reading what has been said I think this would be a great solution into the world of your first
'proper amp'

[url="http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~Ashdown-Mag-C210-T-300~ID~3071.asp"]http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product~name~A...300~ID~3071.asp[/url]

Absolute stonking value for money as seems to be on a deal, my friend bought one recently for £369
and he is smitten with it. Then as needs be in the future you could add the 15 or whatever to it.

Hope this helps and all the best,

Phatt

[Bass-ic]

Another question !
im full of these..sorry!
How good are Thoman amps.....they seem to be their own brand as it were.....Plus they seem to be fairly inexpensive.
Thanks for all your help
Matt

[ShergoldSnickers]

Speaker size/response is a complex issue.

There is no reason why a cab made with 10s should not go as deep as a similar cab using a 15. The frequency response is likely to be different in the mids though.

So what factors affect bass response - and perceived bass response? This is my understanding anyway...

[b]Suspension compliance.[/b] This is a measure of how easy it is to move the speaker back and forth on the suspension. The more compliant a speaker is, the lower the resonant frequency will be, and therefore the lower the potential bass response will be. Too much compliance results in the speaker flapping about and hitting the end stops. Too little compliance will give a resonant frequency too high for practical bass use.

[b]Speaker cone mass.[/b] A 15 will generally have more than a 10 - fairly obvious. The mass usually affects higher frequencies, where the speaker can't be pushed and pulled quick enough to reproduce high mids and above. This is one reason why 10s will often sound clearer.

[b]Speaker cone stiffness[/b]. A stiff cone is better, as it helps stop cone break up, where only parts of the cone are effectively working. Easier to control stiffness with a smaller one.

[b]Excursion limits.[/b] The further the speaker can travel back and forth the more work it can do, and the stronger the bass output. This has no bearing on frequency response per se, but can boost the amount of bass a speaker can produce, and alter the perceived response.

[b]Enclosure design.[/b] [i]The[/i] critical area of getting what's required from a driver, and a well designed cabinet will have more bearing on the overall response than anything else. Assuming the driver is half decent to begin with that is. A good cabinet is able to combine extended response with efficiency - not easy.

A 15 enclosure may [i]appear[/i] to sound bassier due to the lack of mids that 10s would provide, but won't necessarily go any deeper. The slight overhang - the tendency of a 15 to continue moving after the signal has stopped, due to higher mass - may also change the perceived bass response.

As it happens I have an Eden Nemesis NC115 - with a single 15 plus tweeter. Sounds fine to me, but if I need more welly I'll probably try an extra 2x10 cab first to see the difference it makes.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='151244' date='Mar 4 2008, 07:07 PM'][b]Suspension compliance.[/b] This is a measure of how easy it is to move the speaker back and forth on the suspension. The more compliant a speaker is, the lower the resonant frequency will be, and therefore the lower the potential bass response will be. Too much compliance results in the speaker flapping about and hitting the end stops. Too little compliance will give a resonant frequency too high for practical bass use.

[b]Speaker cone mass.[/b] A 15 will generally have more than a 10 - fairly obvious. The mass usually affects higher frequencies, where the speaker can't be pushed and pulled quick enough to reproduce high mids and above. This is one reason why 10s will often sound clearer.[/quote]

I'm not sure how much cone mass alone comes into midrange response - I believe the issue is more one of cone mass versus magnetic field strength (Bl) and much of the midrange issue (and also the transient issue) is due to voice coil inductance. Cone diameter of a rigid cone does clearly affect dispersion. Also resonant frequency is a product of both cone mass and suspension compliance. Qts is very important too - that's how much the speaker wants to resonate at its resonant frequency. Too high and the speaker is so well damped that the response rolls off long before it gets down to resonance, too low and the speaker lacks precision and output (as Qts is closely related to magnet strength).

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='151244' date='Mar 4 2008, 07:07 PM'][b]Speaker cone stiffness[/b]. A stiff cone is better, as it helps stop cone break up, where only parts of the cone are effectively working. Easier to control stiffness with a smaller one. [/quote]

Conversely a flexible cone can produce more midrange and with better dispersion - but for good bass a totally rigid cone is indeed what you want.

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='151244' date='Mar 4 2008, 07:07 PM'][b]Excursion limits.[/b] The further the speaker can travel back and forth the more work it can do, and the stronger the bass output. This has no bearing on frequency response per se, but can boost the amount of bass a speaker can produce, and alter the perceived response.[/quote]

More excursion equals more ability to move air and in doing so handle more power at low frequencies - this is why Acmes can handle so much more power in reality than other cabs that may have higher thermal power handling.

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='151244' date='Mar 4 2008, 07:07 PM'][b]Enclosure design.[/b] [i]The[/i] critical area of getting what's required from a driver, and a well designed cabinet will have more bearing on the overall response than anything else. Assuming the driver is half decent to begin with that is. A good cabinet is able to combine extended response with efficiency - not easy.

A 15 enclosure may [i]appear[/i] to sound bassier due to the lack of mids that 10s would provide, but won't necessarily go any deeper. The slight overhang - the tendency of a 15 to continue moving after the signal has stopped, due to higher mass - may also change the perceived bass response.[/quote]

The problem with most bass cabs is that they squeeze the speaker into too small a space and then tune the port too high so you get annoying resonance, boom and poor transient response. This is particularly common with cheaper 15" cabs because cheap 15"s tend to need big cabs to sound good. But at least cheap 15"s can usually handle more excursion than cheap 10"s and thus move more air.

I'm currently building a cab with a 15" woofer which will go less deep than my previous 10" cabs did. Furthermore neither will sound like typical 15" or 10" cabs in the mids because both have dedicated smaller midrange drivers. It is a bad idea to generalise because such vague rules of thumb tend to get taken as gospel.

I actually started out with a 15" combo, then a 12" combo and then 10" cabs, and as the speaker size got smaller the bass response, loudness and power handling actually got better! Totally coincidental and nothing to do with speaker size and all to do with the quality of the designs.

For every pro that a typical 10" has, there's a con, and likewise with 15"s - they are all subject to the same rules of physics.

A better question than 10" or 15" would be simply, well designed cab vs poorly designed cab. I'm sure we'd all want the well designed cab and if it was well designed then we wouldn't care what it contains!

Alex

[ShergoldSnickers]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='151302' date='Mar 4 2008, 08:17 PM']A better question than 10" or 15" would be simply, well designed cab vs poorly designed cab. I'm sure we'd all want the well designed cab and if it was well designed then we wouldn't care what it contains!

Alex[/quote]

What I was trying to say but so much more elegantly and economically expressed! Just glad it appears I haven't stuck my neck out too far on this one, but hey, if you don't try you don't learn.

Snicks

[alexclaber]

[quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='151312' date='Mar 4 2008, 08:37 PM']Just glad it appears I haven't stuck my neck out too far on this one, but hey, if you don't try you don't learn.[/quote]

Indeed - I have an engineering degree and am pretty good as sussing out anything vaguely mechanical but it's still taken me ages to get my head round all this stuff. Emailing back and forth with Andy @ Acme I'm pretty certain that he has forgotten more about speaker cab design than I will ever learn! Sadly there are few bass cab makers with that degree of understanding...

Alex