New fees in Venues

[JTUK]

Haven't been approached myself ..and we tend to be quite picky about the places we play for various reasons, but I have heard a couple of bands being approached by a pub they play, that the new pay deal is
........£100 plus 10% of bar takings.

These figures horrified me ..as you'd need to proove a bar take of a £1000 to get back to a start-off figure of £200..which is most bands entry level fee round here.

If this idea gets legs and is adopted by others, this will have a massive effect on local music.
Most bands will refuse this initial attempt..which will leave the venue with a poor selection of bands and maybe the end of that venue.

I understand why the venue is trying to do this as their biggest draw only got about 20-30 people on a sat night the other day ..but maybe that so called big draw aren't worth their £300 (guestimate) fee in many pubs.

Any views comment on this? heard of anything similar around your way..?

[Doctor J]

Sounds like a way of trying to encourage bands to do more than just show up on the night.

[Lozz196]

Providing the the venue is willing to show an EPOS til receipt for the evenings takings, to prove what they have taken over the evening, it is probably the way forward that many will start to take. I can see their point, why pay a band £300 when the band haven`t generated any extra revenue for the venue. Whilst this doesn`t bode well for bands, venues are businesses, so they will look after their profits first.

Though as Doctor J says, it does mean that the band need to do a bit more than just turn up - promote the gig etc, with the people they already know, which nowadays, with facebook/myspace etc isn`t that hard. I`ve always like the idea of posters for the venue - advertise yourself well in advance, in the venue you`re going to be playing. This of course, needs co-operation from the venue.

[bassace]

It's difficult for pubs to make a lot of profit just from selling beer these days. I look on a pub gig as an opportunity to play in a relaxed informal setting and that's about it. £150 to £180 seems about the pub limit. We do a monthly pub gig (jazz) with a five piece and a singer, sometimes a guest who gets up to £100 and we make it work with a raffle. Not quite sure how tho' sometimes.

[Dubs]

I'm talking covers here, but I wouldn't bother with a £100 + 10% deal, and I'd only consider it if I knew that the venue would put the work in to promote the night. A good band is worth the money if the venue turns it into a proper live music event. It's not for the band to always bring along their mates to subsidise the door/bar take. I've played for too many half arsed promoters to give a sh*t that they're losing money because the only people there are people that the band have brought along.

Play weddings and private parties. More work but a lot more money.

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1300623' date='Jul 12 2011, 08:39 AM']Sounds like a way of trying to encourage bands to do more than just show up on the night.[/quote]

I can't think of hardly any local bands that do just show up on the night. Could be different round your way though.

[lojo]

We've done £150/160 + bucket which worked ok, also doesn't cost the pub any %

[dc2009]

I assume you're talking about a covers band? I play in an originals band and we'd be more than chuffed with someone offering us money up front. Our only paid gigs coming up are entirely proportional to the door take, and they're not all that generous.

[JTUK]

I think our scene is quite vibrant with new gigs coming online all the time... but the fees are at a standstill..understandably.

Most venues do make an effort to promote and this eventually pays dividends..but what this current venue doesn't maybe get is that by cutting this fee to the new deal..decent bands will not bother with it
and nothing kills a venue that a seriers of bad bands...which is probably why this place is struggling in the first place.

The best places to play..which are the hardest to get into..have their own 'rosta' of proven acts and people know that the quality of the place garauntees a decent band..so people will turn up on spec.
Here, promo is less important...but it takes a while to sort wheat from the chaff..??

I would say that most bands that I know, put far more effort into getting people there than most venues do, IMO/IME.

I have to say, any venue that does not have its own following, wont get ours either.
We have helped build up places so it is not all a one way street from our POV.

[wateroftyne]

One of the biggest pub gigs around this neck of the woods tried this a few years ago. Unfortunately it didn't work out as most of the bands were suspicious of it.

The ones that tried it did OK... some actually did very well out of it.

[chris_b]

Your percentage of the bar take probably won't include any credit card sales. So you'll be taking home even less than you think.

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='lojo' post='1300718' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:28 AM']We've done £150/160 + bucket which worked ok, also doesn't cost the pub any %[/quote]

Bucket, or maybe just a jug and a pretty girl taking it round collecting. yeah that works.


Doesnt matter what you do, or what you charge for it, its a fact of life that theres some busy fool who will undercut you. I'm a sub contractor and 10 years ago could usually get
£ 20-£25 an hour plus mileage. These days its a bit less, but some idiot up north has just undercut me by £8 an hour and doesnt charge mileage. So is running a vehicle for nothing, he wont last long but it sets a precedent.

Lets hope this deoesnt become the norm with bands, some of the smaller pub gigs we do just wouldnt be viable if it does. £100 split 4 or 5 ways wouldnt even cover expenses.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Slipperydick

[SteveO]

Regardless of the arguments for and against taking such a deal, a quick google says that a pub can expect net profits between 5% and 10%. It makes no sense for a pub to give away all of its profits, unless it's a way of making sure that the pub doesn't make a loss that night. Of course this deal also means that it wont make a profit either.


Unless of course its 10% of the bar takings.... after costs.

[dc2009]

Having never played in a covers band, though having seen a few, this is all very interesting to me. JTUK you mentioned people going to a certain place because they know of the music quality they are likely to get. Maybe its a scene I've never been a part of, but I can't say I've ever met anyone who is going to a certain venue in order to experience whichever live act they have on that night - or do these people exist in their droves and just in different circles to my own? IME people go to a venue to see a specific band they know is playing. The only time I've ever seen covers bands are when they happen to be on in a venue I've gone into, and even then you only stay if a) they're any good, you're happy to not be able to talk to the people you have come there with.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1300751' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:04 AM']do these people exist in their droves and just in different circles to my own?[/quote]

Yep.

[quote name='dc2009' post='1300751' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:04 AM']IME people go to a venue to see a specific band they know is playing.[/quote]

'Round our way, lots of people just go to their local. Some people travel to see bands, but I'd say more fall into the former category.

And then... some pubs have a reputation for only having good stuff on (by and large). They tend to get bigger crowds.

[BottomE]

If you are in a decent (cover) band you should be able to get a decent fee at a decent venue and wouldn't have to think about this kind of deal.

[dc2009]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1300761' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:12 AM']Yep.

'Round our way, lots of people just go to their local. Some people travel to see bands, but I'd say more fall into the former category.

And then... some pubs have a reputation for only having good stuff on (by and large). They tend to get bigger crowds.[/quote]

This all seems reasonable and understandable. Never been a massive fan of most music most covers bands play if I'm honest (or at least the ones I've seen). Nothing bad about it, just too far before my time for me ever to have been a fan, and consequently only having a vague knowledge of the songs means I'm rarely interested. Perhaps cover bands in 20 years time will be playing Foo Fighters and Muse. That'll be good :-) (not massive fans of either but it's music I know).

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1300772' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:19 AM']This all seems reasonable and understandable. Never been a massive fan of most music most covers bands play if I'm honest (or at least the ones I've seen). Nothing bad about it, just too far before my time for me ever to have been a fan, and consequently only having a vague knowledge of the songs means I'm rarely interested. Perhaps cover bands in 20 years time will be playing Foo Fighters and Muse. That'll be good :-) (not massive fans of either but it's music I know).[/quote]
Heh... quite a few of the covers bands around here play more recent stuff I'm not familiar with.

[Prime_BASS]

100+ 10% of the bar takings would be about £600 at my local!

The place is usually quite busy any way regardless of what's on music wise.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1300772' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:19 AM']Perhaps cover bands in 20 years time will be playing Foo Fighters and Muse. That'll be good :-) (not massive fans of either but it's music I know).[/quote]

They all flipping are down this way now. I long for the days of Nirvana covers....

[Dubs]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1300772' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:19 AM']This all seems reasonable and understandable. Never been a massive fan of most music most covers bands play if I'm honest (or at least the ones I've seen). Nothing bad about it, just too far before my time for me ever to have been a fan, and consequently only having a vague knowledge of the songs means I'm rarely interested. Perhaps cover bands in 20 years time will be playing Foo Fighters and Muse. That'll be good :-) (not massive fans of either but it's music I know).[/quote]

Sounds like your problem is with the bands and not the deal? As has been said above, a decent band will get a good fee and won't need to consider a deal like this.

[JTUK]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1300761' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:12 AM']And then... some pubs have a reputation for only having good stuff on (by and large). They tend to get bigger crowds.[/quote]

This is the model I am referring to.

Ex big name muso vets the bands and they become part of his rosta. His pay isn't the best but this seems to work as a sought after gig.

And by and large..people go there on his gig nights as they trust his judgement.
PR is very low key, and there may be an e-mail group for special dates..but a few pubs get the vibe right and then the music follows and then they cherry pick bands.
Long drawn out process but all round the best model, IMO.

of course, some bands are good draws and will bring a crowd.....but then the control is with the band...which isn't the best ideal as the venue is at the mercy of that sell/promo on any given date.

[dc2009]

[quote name='Dubs' post='1300794' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:26 AM']Sounds like your problem is with the bands and not the deal? As has been said above, a decent band will get a good fee and won't need to consider a deal like this.[/quote]

I was wandering off topic, surprised that any bands are offered this kind of money! Not got a comment on the deal really, other than I'd be happy to take it.

[Dubs]

[quote name='dc2009' post='1300837' date='Jul 12 2011, 12:01 PM']I was wandering off topic, surprised that any bands are offered this kind of money! Not got a comment on the deal really, other than I'd be happy to take it.[/quote]

I can see what you mean - as an originals band it'd be great and a lot more than I'd be expecting - we usually play for free!! As a good covers band it seems like a pretty raw deal - covers sets, whilst fun, do feel like work, and when you're putting on a good show and everyone in the place is loving it, you should be paid properly for it... IMO.

[dc2009]

[quote name='Dubs' post='1300854' date='Jul 12 2011, 12:09 PM']I can see what you mean - as an originals band it'd be great and a lot more than I'd be expecting - we usually play for free!! As a good covers band it seems like a pretty raw deal - covers sets, whilst fun, do feel like work, and when you're putting on a good show and everyone in the place is loving it, you should be paid properly for it... IMO.[/quote]

Perhaps, though I play music for enjoyment, not for work, and whilst many guys play in covers bands to supplement their income, I'd argue it's a bonus to play for pay, but you should just be happy to be playing music to people who are enjoying it. Being in a covers band has the ease of the fact that if you're good, you should get decent turnouts - good and gig turnout are distinctly not related in the originals world. Surely a big reason a cover band will frequently get a good audience is because they're playing songs they haven't written, it's covers which are hopefully familiar to the audience, if anything I'd argue they deserve less for a gig on that basis!