Tips on what to look for when choosing a recording studio

[lanark]

As a follow on to my question about whether anyone had used York's Melrose Yard Studios, I realised that I have no clue as to what to look for when choosing a studio.

My band are close to wanting to do more than just record rehearsals and pretty soon we'll be looking to go further, either recording high quality demos or maybe even putting together a CD we can sell at gigs / put up to Bandcamp for DL or something. However, I have no clue whatsoever about the whole process.

As I don't want to be ripped off, taken for a fool or whatever, I was wondering if anyone could give me some general tips on what to look out for and what the process consists of - from arriving and setting up to getting that master back to do whatever with.

For info, in case it has any bearing: we're a 9 (sometimes 10 - recently, for one gig, 13) piece salsa band, so loads of percussion and brass.

Edited June 23, 2011 by lanark

[paul_5]

don't be seduced by flashing lights and the machine that goes 'ping', listen to some of their previous output, it should give you an idea of what you're getting into.

[lanark]

[quote name='paul_5' post='1269432' date='Jun 14 2011, 11:28 PM']don't be seduced by flashing lights and the machine that goes 'ping', listen to some of their previous output, it should give you an idea of what you're getting into.[/quote]

They might have a machine that goes "ping!"? Coooooooooooooool

[Beedster]

For me the most important thing is going to be the person setting up the mics and sitting at the desk. The best equipped studio in the world will sound crap without the necessary talent, whilst a talented engineer can make you wound incredible using a 4-track in your garage. Good luck

[ZMech]

nice thread idea, I'll be keeping an eye on the suggestions that come up for future use myself

[Lozz196]

Agree with listening to some samples of their work.

From there, then look up the same band on youtube/myspace, and see what their live performance is like, so you can get an idea of the "magic" the studio has done for them.

[Monckyman]

A live band that size means two things.
A large GOOD sounding room and some tasty mics.
All the pinging machines can be bought and used at home nowadays, but a good live room and the right quality mics are still the domain of a decent studio.
Good engineer helps, obviously, recent work done there should show what they are capable of.
Not many studios will be able to cater for recording up to 16 tracks at once so that will narrow it down a bit.
Having said that, you probably won`t record everything to it`s individual track, there will probably be a few stereo groups of percussion etc, but you still need a good amount of quality mics.
If you are recording a live performance with no overdubs then monitoring becomes irrelevant so no headphone problems.
Same with processing, you probably won`t be gating anything, but you will need to compress a few things.
Interesting job I reckon.
You`ll probably spend the lions share of the day getting comfortable and getting the right mics in the right place to catch the right dynamic. After that it will be down to your performance.
Ask to see a mic list and how they would tackle the job, BEFORE you give it to them.

Good luck!

[xilddx]

Studios are all about people. Equipment is important, but it don't mean sh*t without people with talent. You can record great music on next to nothing. So talk to the people you'll be working with, get a feel for them and listen to what they've done recently in the SAME studio. CVs don't mean much either. We've had people with amazing CVs (2nd engineer with major producers etc.) who set up their own studio and offer to produce our music for free. Then you listen to their work and realise the reason they made the offer is because they want talent to work with for their next CV and they actually have no f***ing ear whatsoever, and little ability to produce great recordings and mixes. So, studios are all about the people.

The most important thing is to get good clean recordings with plenty of frequency range, especially for acoustic instruments. It should go without saying you should be very well rehearsed and able to lay down really well performed tracks quickly. Production is where it's at now, so getting good recordings to work with is what's most important in a studio. Decent mics, pres, desk, and room are important, so do your research on what good equivalent studios are using.

Recording drums is a major undertaking. You get people micing each drum, you get people micing the kick with two overheads, depends what is right for the band and what sound you want. Be wary of too much processing, some people stick all sorts of sh*t on the drums, gates, limiters, reverbs, all sorts. This isn't generally necessary now as it can all be controlled on the computer at the mixing stage. Again, get good clean recordings with plenty of frequency range. An experienced engineer with good ears is worth their weight in gold.

Recording a live band in a studio is where you need plenty of space, good room sound and good equipment with an engineer who really knows what they're doing in terms of instrument isolation, mic phasing, and minimum bleed on the channels.

After the tracking is done you need to work with someone who has a really good ear and technical knowledge for mixing and mastering.

[woodyratm]

[quote name='silddx' post='1269834' date='Jun 15 2011, 11:20 AM']Studios are all about people. Equipment is important, but it don't mean sh*t without people with talent. You can record great music on next to nothing. So talk to the people you'll be working with, get a feel for them and listen to what they've done recently in the SAME studio. CVs don't mean much either. We've had people with amazing CVs (2nd engineer with major producers etc.) who set up their own studio and offer to produce our music for free. Then you listen to their work and realise the reason they made the offer is because they want talent to work with for their next CV and they actually have no f***ing ear whatsoever, and little ability to produce great recordings and mixes. So, studios are all about the people.

The most important thing is to get good clean recordings with plenty of frequency range, especially for acoustic instruments. It should go without saying you should be very well rehearsed and able to lay down really well performed tracks quickly. Production is where it's at now, so getting good recordings to work with is what's most important in a studio. Decent mics, pres, desk, and room are important, so do your research on what good equivalent studios are using.

Recording drums is a major undertaking. You get people micing each drum, you get people micing the kick with two overheads, depends what is right for the band and what sound you want. Be wary of too much processing, some people stick all sorts of sh*t on the drums, gates, limiters, reverbs, all sorts. This isn't generally necessary now as it can all be controlled on the computer at the mixing stage. Again, get good clean recordings with plenty of frequency range. An experienced engineer with good ears is worth their weight in gold.

Recording a live band in a studio is where you need plenty of space, good room sound and good equipment with an engineer who really knows what they're doing in terms of instrument isolation, mic phasing, and minimum bleed on the channels.

After the tracking is done you need to work with someone who has a really good ear and technical knowledge for mixing and mastering.[/quote]

+1

Also i've found - be willing to discuss aspects with the engineer. Take their advice - what sounds good in a live enviroment may not work brilliantly in a studio (as i found out recording effects)

[lanark]

All good advice - I'm learning a lot. Please keep it coming.

Has anybody got any advice about the best places / personalities to investigate in the York / Leeds area?

[BigRedX]

What you need:

1. Great engineer with great ears who knows how to get the best sound and performance out of the musicians.

2. A great sounding live room with enough space to fit all the musicians comfortably.

3. Suitable mics to record all the instruments being used (and enough of them to record all the instruments that need to be recorded together).

4. Be very well rehearsed. If you're going to be recording mostly live just make sure that all the playing is really tight (stuff that's not quite right and can be got away with live because it's over in a moment will come back to haunt you forever on a recording). If you are going to be recording in bits make sure that the musicians in question can play their parts well when the rest of the band isn't there to "clue them in". Rehearse it as you are going to record it so you're not discovering new problems in the studio when it's going to cost you. Don't record with a click unless that's how you play live, or you've practised with one before and are comfortable playing to it.

5. Make sure that everybody's instruments are working properly and aren't making any noises that they're not supposed to. Now is the time to fix all those noisy pedals and amps - not when you're actually in the studio. All tune to a single source - not all tuners are created equal; and make sure that it's available for any overdubs that need to be recorded at a later date. Also don't be tempted by amps or instruments in the studio unless they sound amazing and comfortable to play immediately. Your gear is what you are familiar with and fancy/vintage stuff might not suit the overall band sound no matter how good it sounds on its own.

6. Don't assume that you can fix stuff "in the mix" record it properly and accurately in the first place.

7. Don't mix on the same day as the recording. You should wait at least a week before going back to mix having listened carefully to the recorded tracks and be armed with a list of all the things you want to do. Allow 1-2 times as long for the mixing as you took for the recording.

8. Unless someone else is paying for it then remember it's your money that is being spent. Go and see the studio and have a chat with the engineer before booking any time. Explain what you want to do. Listen to the engineer - they should know how to get the best out of their studio. However if you don't feel comfortable with their way of working then this is probably not the studio for your band. Look elsewhere.

9. If something isn't working either when recording or mixing take a quick break and move onto another song. Come back to it later. Above all play well and have fun and create something to be proud of.

[51m0n]

Oh boy, you will need a BIG room. It must sound great.

You need a veryugood tracking engineer, who understands how to get the necessary amount of seperation, not too much not too little.

You then need a guy to mix the tracks who knows the genre at least a little, who understands the technical requirements completely, and has good ears.

The question is how can you tell all this?

Visit the studio. Talk to the engineer, if he is all about mic selection, placement and room acoustics, he is your man, if he's all about the spec on his computer, he may not be. Ask him to try and record as clean as possible of he starts gating the kit a lot ask why, its something you can choose to do later at mix down if you want, but you cant undo then so he'd better get it bang on for every track (a lot of fannying about that!).

They will need a fairly big desk/bunch of pre's, and good mics (and lots of them), check out the gear list on their web page. Doing a big salsa band will challenge a lot of project studios, if they start talking about overdubbing all the percussion you may be in the wrong place, its hard to capture that feel when you arent all playing together - at least the core of the rhythm section should ideally put down the basis with a guide vocal IMO. Click tracks may not be appropriate - certainly not if anyone cant play to one in the band.

Make sure the studio is happy for you to take away the stem tracks from the session unmixed. Back in the day you could walk out wiht the multitrack tape if you paid for it, this is the equivalent thing, it means you can get someone else to mix it later if you dont like the studios efforts. A protools or logic project/session isnt as good, its tied to a specific piece of software you see, you want the individual wavs at whatever quality they recorded them at, with no fx on at all.

[PapillonIrl]

Can you list the line-up of the band, and how you normally play and rehearse ? All acoustic or some amplified instruments ? What are you willing to overdub, what must be played live to get the vibe right ?

More than likely a click track is not appropriate, as stated above, but what if (assuming live tracking)there is an electric bass which everyone wants to hear while tracking, but there is to much bleed from the bass amp into the instrument/drum mics, and the bass player wants to be beside the drummer, who has a 6 piece kit ?

All of a sudden you may need to track with headphones and isolate the amps in another room, which potentially means a studio with 10 headphone mixes and 32 channels of input. That should narrow down the selection somewhat.

[lanark]

[quote name='PapillonIrl' post='1270757' date='Jun 15 2011, 10:21 PM']Can you list the line-up of the band, and how you normally play and rehearse ? All acoustic or some amplified instruments ? What are you willing to overdub, what must be played live to get the vibe right ?

More than likely a click track is not appropriate, as stated above, but what if (assuming live tracking)there is an electric bass which everyone wants to hear while tracking, but there is to much bleed from the bass amp into the instrument/drum mics, and the bass player wants to be beside the drummer, who has a 6 piece kit ?

All of a sudden you may need to track with headphones and isolate the amps in another room, which potentially means a studio with 10 headphone mixes and 32 channels of input. That should narrow down the selection somewhat.[/quote]

When rehearsing the only amplified instruments are my bass, vocals and an electric piano, but obviously when playing live, everything - including percussion and horns - are mic'd up.

Line up:

Rhythm Section:
Bass (most important, obviously)
Timbales
Congas
Keys
Miscellaneous percussion played by vocalist or timbale player (maracas, clave, cowbell, guiro eto)

Horn Section:
Trumpet
Trombone
Sax
Flute

Plus vocals (including backing provided by other instrumentalists)

Here's a link to a You Tube clip of the band (it's a compilation of bits and pieces - but it gives an idea of the size of the band - although for this gig, we did have twice as many horns as normal - two trombones, two trumpets, two saxes and the flute - mostly deps too - no wonder we didn't make any money lol)

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCabiW_xqEQ"]York Gig - snippets[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m3_zU50SYA"]Bits and pieces from all sorts of gigs last year[/url]

Edited June 20, 2011 by lanark

[51m0n]

[quote name='PapillonIrl' post='1270757' date='Jun 15 2011, 10:21 PM']More than likely a click track is not appropriate, as stated above, but what if (assuming live tracking)there is an electric bass which everyone wants to hear while tracking, but there is to much bleed from the bass amp into the instrument/drum mics, and the bass player wants to be beside the drummer, who has a 6 piece kit ?

All of a sudden you may need to track with headphones and isolate the amps in another room, which potentially means a studio with 10 headphone mixes and 32 channels of input. That should narrow down the selection somewhat.[/quote]

This will need to be tracked with headp[hones, bleed from a bass amp would need to be prtetty heavily isoalted IMO unless you are in a really great space, with an amp that sounds perfect. "Fixing it in the mix" will not be possible to any great extent without compromising something else.

[quote name='lanark' post='1270884' date='Jun 16 2011, 12:39 AM']When rehearsing the only amplified instruments are my bass, vocals and an electric piano, but obviously when playing live, everything - including percussion and horns - are mic'd up.

Line up:

Rhythm Section:
Bass (most important, obviously)
Timbales
Congas
Keys
Miscellaneous percussion played by vocalist or timbale player (maracas, clave, cowbell, guiro eto)

Horn Section:
Trumpet
Trombone
Sax
Flute

Plus vocals (including backing provided by other instrumentalists)[/quote]

I would expoect to need to put down at the very least the following:-

Rhythm Section:
Bass (most important, obviously)
Timbales
Congas
Keys
Guide Vocal

In one go.

Ideally I'd want the horns down as well, but you are looking for a huge live room to do that, and this is almost certainly outside your budget.

Could the horns overdub their parts???

Their being able to do that is really going to make or break the result.

[bremen]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1271162' date='Jun 16 2011, 10:52 AM']I would expoect to need to put down at the very least the following:-

Rhythm Section:
Bass (most important, obviously)
Timbales
Congas
Keys
Guide Vocal

In one go.

Ideally I'd want the horns down as well, but you are looking for a huge live room to do that, and this is almost certainly outside your budget.

Could the horns overdub their parts???

Their being able to do that is really going to make or break the result.[/quote]

What he said. Recording horns is a joy; trying to keep the sound of horns from the percussion mics is a nightmare.

[PapillonIrl]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1271162' date='Jun 16 2011, 10:52 AM']This will need to be tracked with headp[hones, bleed from a bass amp would need to be prtetty heavily isoalted IMO unless you are in a really great space, with an amp that sounds perfect. "Fixing it in the mix" will not be possible to any great extent without compromising something else.



I would expoect to need to put down at the very least the following:-

Rhythm Section:
Bass (most important, obviously)
Timbales
Congas
Keys
Guide Vocal

In one go.

Ideally I'd want the horns down as well, but you are looking for a huge live room to do that, and this is almost certainly outside your budget.

Could the horns overdub their parts???

Their being able to do that is really going to make or break the result.[/quote]


While I would agree with your approach regarding instruments being tracked first, I would not not be so quick to dismiss headphones entirely. If the bass amp is heavily isolated as you say, one or more of the musicians may find they need to hear more of it while tracking. Sometimes headphones are a vibe killer, sometimes multiple headphone mixes are what is needed to make a band comfortable.

DI'd bass may be an option, re-amped later if necessary, will give more separation again, if required, but requires headphones.

Vocalist and keyboardist will require headphones unless you plan on using floor wedges or speakers in the room.

Not having guide horn tracks go down as well, also audible to the musicians, could also be a vibe-killer. Sometimes a solution for this for this is horns in another room, with headphones.

Depends on how many rooms are available in the facility, how big they are, what they sound like, what kind of mix you need, what foldback is available, and what the musicians need to hear to get a good live feel going IMO.

It is nice to have options in case one approach isn't working for some reason though. I would look for a space with a decent sized live room, good mic selection, one or two separate booths or small rooms in addition, and at least the capability to provide a few cue mixes if you hopefully won't need them.

Edited June 17, 2011 by PapillonIrl

[51m0n]

[quote name='PapillonIrl' post='1272485' date='Jun 17 2011, 10:23 AM']While I would agree with your approach regarding instruments being tracked first, I would not not be so quick to dismiss headphones entirely. If the bass amp is heavily isolated as you say, one or more of the musicians may find they need to hear more of it while tracking. Sometimes headphones are a vibe killer, sometimes multiple headphone mixes are what is needed to make a band comfortable.

----///-----SNIP---///----

It is nice to have options in case one approach isn't working for some reason though. I would look for a space with a decent sized live room, good mic selection, one or two separate booths or small rooms in addition, and at least the capability to provide a few cue mixes if you hopefully won't need them.[/quote]

Err I didn't dismiss headphones at all (have another read of the first bit of my post), quite the opposite I suggested they would be required, precisely because the bass will be isolated, in another room, DI'ed (who knows). The keys will in all likelihood be DI'ed too. No need for extra spill in the percussion from a keys amp unless its a Hammond, in which case get it out of the room if possible.

Unless the studio has either a massive live room or a separate second live room then the horns will have to be overdubbed, otherwise you will get a mass of horn spill on the percussion and vice versa.

Given the OP's question I would imagine this is self funded, and therefore the budget isnt stratospheric, so they probably aren't looking at studios with huge live rooms, or multiple large enough live rooms. SO back to getting the rhythm section down minus the horns. Of course you could also track a guide horn part from the control room if the engineer has some ear defenders....

Edited June 17, 2011 by 51m0n

[PapillonIrl]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1272708' date='Jun 17 2011, 01:30 PM']Err I didn't dismiss headphones at all (have another read of the first bit of my post)...[/quote]




Sorry mate, long day yesterday, seems I managed to somehow read the exact opposite of what you wrote.

@ OP : Do you have a short list of facilities at this point ?

[lanark]

[quote name='51m0n' post='1272708' date='Jun 17 2011, 01:30 PM']Given the OP's question I would imagine this is self funded, and therefore the budget isnt stratospheric[/quote]

Absolutely right, sir. Budget at the moment is minimial. Obviously it would have been wisest to have started an acoustic folk duo.


[quote name='PapillonIrl' post='1272979' date='Jun 17 2011, 05:22 PM']@ OP : Do you have a short list of facilities at this point ?[/quote]

Not at all. Realistically, we're still many months away from doing any actual recording, but I figured that given the complexities of the band's configuration, I thought it was wise to have a really good idea of what would be needed, what would be expected, as early as possible: and this thread has given me an awful lot of food for though.

Perhaps it would be easiest to organise a live gig recording and overdub any serious fluffs / audio issues. But then I imagine that would open a whole different can of worms.

[51m0n]

[quote name='lanark' post='1273652' date='Jun 18 2011, 12:23 PM']Perhaps it would be easiest to organise a live gig recording and overdub any serious fluffs / audio issues. But then I imagine that would open a whole different can of worms.[/quote]

IMO if you want to get a reasonable recording for getting gigs in the first place you would do a lot worse than buying a Zoom H2, setting up in a nice sounding practice venue (make sure the vocal is dominatingly loud through a good PA!!!!!) and record that (make sure the levels are good)

If you are looking to get something for merch at gigs then you need a 'proper' recording, however that is achieved. Recording a gig is really really hard to do, and overdubbing is not at all easy, not a plan I would suggest at all.

[lanark]

So - to keep the budget down as much as possible, and massively increase the range of options we can choose from as far as recording studios go, would it be possible to:

i) record the rhythm section and vocals first (assuming that we're extremely well rehearsed and the length of any horn solo are known in advance) - to avoid bleeding into the percussion mics, we have the bass and keys DI'd straight to the desk and the band wearing headphones to hear the rough mix live as we play.

We then take this away and the horns practice with this rhythm section recording and later ....

ii) the horns come into the studio at a later date, to record their sections to the pre-recorded rhythm section recording, which they'll be listening to through headphones to avoid the earlier recording being heard on the horns' mics.

Have I got that anything like straight?

The two sections would then be taken away and mastered (what on earth goes on in the matering process by the way - and does it come before or after the "mix"?) and mixed or whatever black art gets practised on them before you get the shiny silved disc?

Would that sort of thing be practicable, as we've ascertained that for an unsigned band of our size, it would take a friendly millionaire to bankroll the ideal recording setup.

Edited June 19, 2011 by lanark

[PapillonIrl]

[quote name='lanark' post='1275162' date='Jun 19 2011, 07:54 PM']So - to keep the budget down as much as possible, and massively increase the range of options we can choose from as far as recording studios go, would it be possible to:

i) record the rhythm section and vocals first (assuming that we're extremely well rehearsed and the length of any horn solo are known in advance) - to avoid bleeding into the percussion mics, we have the bass and keys DI'd straight to the desk and the band wearing headphones to hear the rough mix live as we play.

We then take this away and the horns practice with this rhythm section recording and later ....

ii) the horns come into the studio at a later date, to record their sections to the pre-recorded rhythm section recording, which they'll be listening to through headphones to avoid the earlier recording being heard on the horns' mics.

Have I got that anything like straight?

The two sections would then be taken away and mastered (what on earth goes on in the matering process by the way - and does it come before or after the "mix"?) and mixed or whatever black art gets practised on them before you get the shiny silved disc?

Would that sort of thing be practicable, as we've ascertained that for an unsigned band of our size, it would take a friendly millionaire to bankroll the ideal recording setup.[/quote]

I think you are on the right track here, although I think it would benefit you to have a facility with a few headphone mixes rather than one mix for everyone.

Mastering is the final step in the process, and involves processing the final stereo mix for maximum translation across as many audio systems, and maximum coherence between tracks as possible using (if necessary) various techniques involving mainly EQ, compression/limiting and gain adjustment.

It is often recommended that this process takes place in a different acoustic space, preferably with a different engineer, so that any problems in the mix environment can be picked up and not masked by the issues in the mix room.

Of course the tech stuff like PQ codes, CD-text, and production of a glass master for the duplication company are usually done by the mastering engineer also.

Good mastering houses often spend as much on the acoustic design/treatment of the room, and their set of monitor speakers as a mid-level studio will spend on all of their equipment put together.

It is a buyers market out there for mastering though, loads of reputable places with good rates for unsigned acts.

[lanark]

This thread has been absolutely fascinating - I've learnt so much. And realised how much I really really don't know.

[51m0n]

[quote name='lanark' post='1275162' date='Jun 19 2011, 07:54 PM']So - to keep the budget down as much as possible, and massively increase the range of options we can choose from as far as recording studios go, would it be possible to:

i) record the rhythm section and vocals first (assuming that we're extremely well rehearsed and the length of any horn solo are known in advance) - to avoid bleeding into the percussion mics, we have the bass and keys DI'd straight to the desk and the band wearing headphones to hear the rough mix live as we play.

We then take this away and the horns practice with this rhythm section recording and later ....

ii) the horns come into the studio at a later date, to record their sections to the pre-recorded rhythm section recording, which they'll be listening to through headphones to avoid the earlier recording being heard on the horns' mics.

Have I got that anything like straight?

The two sections would then be taken away and mastered (what on earth goes on in the matering process by the way - and does it come before or after the "mix"?) and mixed or whatever black art gets practised on them before you get the shiny silved disc?

Would that sort of thing be practicable, as we've ascertained that for an unsigned band of our size, it would take a friendly millionaire to bankroll the ideal recording setup.[/quote]


Close.

Process is more like this:-

1) Track the main percussion, keys and a guide vocal

2) Overdub the horn section

3) Overdub the real vocal

4) Overdub any backing vocals, assorted odds and sods of extra percussion, the kitchen sink etc etc

5) Mix down of the track, where the myriad individual tracks are blended together into a 2 track stereo recording

6) Repeat 1 -> 5 for all the songs

7) Send all the songs to be mastered, where they will be balanced together for volume and frequencies, put into a final running order, faded together or split wiht the required amount of silence and an ISO and disc burnt with UPC code and PQ codes. Ready for....

8) Duplication, the process of making many copies of a CD - you also need to provide artwork for this....