Juzgoez Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Isn't the most important thing, how you feel when you play? You can't please everyone, so you might as well please yourself.......to a point that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1169239' date='Mar 20 2011, 10:03 AM']Are we more impressed with the 'name' than the player..??[/quote] If, by [b][i]we[/i][/b], you mean the general public, then the answer is... [b]mostly, yes![/b] If you mean the discerning musician, then the answer is...[b]sometimes, yes![/b] It surprises me that anyone should be surprised by that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 I used the word relevant before, and someone who can keep up the commitment and improve is that guy. I don't know how some got the gig in the first place.. and I wouldn't have any of them in front of the guy we have now. How cruel can be the fickle hand of 'fame' be..?? It just intrigues me... thats all. What is talent and what is right place, right time? I picked on drummers as I expect bass players..above others..to know the value of a good drummer..or not..!!!! But I could mention a gtr player here and there and a sax player... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juzgoez Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Supply and demand. Tastes change. Nothing is really new and everything does the rounds, sometimes more than once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Rick Astley just played at our local music pub, on drums. He was very good by all accounts. Most musicians are not very flexible and the famous ones are usually famous for doing what they do best. Get them to do something else and you discover how fragile they can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1169239' date='Mar 20 2011, 10:03 AM']Are we more impressed with the 'name' than the player..??[/quote] Yep. There are alot of players out there that have had a very successful with their band and have been lauded as genius or whatever,but it's more to do with their band being popular than them being the greatest,or even adequate,musician. There would be many players who would have never had a career of they hadn't been very lucky,and many of them can and will play on their bands reputation for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchman Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1168283' date='Mar 19 2011, 03:33 PM']There are great young players,and there are great older players,it makes no difference.[/quote] +1. Youth's a marketing ploy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 The name is far more important than the player because the public (many musicians included) lack the critical skills to recognise a good or great player from a mediocre one. Any thread here that starts discussing the best players in a genre quickly turns into a list of every bass player in that genre, irrespective of whether they made a contribution or not. I once heard a guy explain that sport and music had taken over from duelling; Musician One - I know something about music Musicina Two - yes, but I know more. Musicians One - but did you knwo that musician X played on that 1968 LP with..... Musican Two - Yes, I knew that, but did you know the drummer on that session was XXX A chastened Musician One withdraws with the express intention of increasing his knowledge of Rock trivia ready for the next encounter..... All the stats here show that people talk about gear and their favourite bands. Very few threads discuss core musical skills. We are all mainly interested in being hipper than the next guy. Objective fact plays no part in that. As our culture is increasingly youth obsessed, old farts are deemed unhip because, to be hip, it has to be new - even if it is obviously utter sh*te. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Good post Bilbo. It's so true that having good 'musical knowledge' often means knowing who played Tibetan nose flute on some record,rather than what notes make a C chord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassicinstinct Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) Three words: [b]Becker and Fagen.[/b] Nuff said? I"d certainly count myself as an "old fart", but whether I can still cut it is another question. Edited March 28, 2011 by bassicinstinct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveK Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Bilbo, I think your post is a little unfair. I can honestly say that I don't remember hearing anyone talk about music with a kind of dueling mentality. I experience nearly every day people talking [b]enthusiastically[/b] about the [i]when, how and who[/i] of music. There's certainly no point scoring involved. I'm a musician, but I'm not [i]just[/i] interested in becoming a better player, I'm also interested in the trivia, who played on what, where and how, because I'm a fan of music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 [quote name='SteveK' post='1179493' date='Mar 28 2011, 01:54 PM']..... I experience nearly every day people talking [b]enthusiastically[/b] about the [i]when, how and who[/i] of music. There's certainly no point scoring involved. I'm a musician, but I'm not [i]just[/i] interested in becoming a better player, I'm also interested in the trivia, who played on what, where and how, because I'm a fan of music.[/quote] A person I know played on a Chaka Khan classic album and lived in New York at the time. I was fascinated about the players I knew who were on that album ( it is a real favourite ) and little anecdotes he was able to mention about what was a pretty heavy music scene at the time. On that album were Mark Stevens - backing vocals, bass guitar Cissy Houston - backing vocals Whitney Houston - backing vocals Charlotte Crossley - backing vocals Luther Vandross - backing vocals Ullanda McCullough - backing vocals Anthony Jackson - bass guitar Willie Weeks - bass Marcus Miller - bass Jeff Mironov - guitar, sitar solo trk 3 Hamish Stuart - guitar, backing vocals Hiram Bullock - guitar solo trk 1, 2, 6 Phil Upchurch - guitar, guitar solo trk 3 Steve Khan - guitar Arthur Jerkins - percussion, clavinet, electric piano Sammy Figueroa - percussion Naná Vasconcelos - percussion Steve Ferrone - drums Leon Pendarvis - piano, electric piano, synthesizer Don Grolnick - electric piano Ken Bichel - synthesizer Richard Tee - synthesizer Howard Johnson - tuba David Bargeron - tuba Robert Stewart - tuba Joseph Daley - tuba Peter Gordon - french horn John Trevor Clark - french horn Michael Brecker - tenor saxophone Harvey Estrin - tenor saxophone David Tofani - alto saxophone Harvey Estrin - alto saxophone Eddie Daniels - alto saxophone, tenor saxophone Lewis Delgatto - baritone saxophone Ronnie Cuber - baritone saxophone Randy Brecker - trumpet Marvin Stamm - trumpet Barry Rogers - trombone James Pugh - trombone Noel Pointer - electric violin Hugh McCracken - harmonica solo trk: 9 and that is without the strings etc .. Who wouldn't want to know about that..? well, I understand if the music isn't your thing...but this pretty much looks like the Who's who of the NY session scene of that time..with a few exceptions, maybe D Sanborn for one...but then his double David Tofani is there. Anyway..we talked for ages and I forgot to set up in time. Its all music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 My post was just designed to present another idea to think about. As I said, someone else presented the idea to me and I found it interesting. Like all such theories, its not without its weaknesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Anthony Jackson - bass guitar Naná Vasconcelos - percussion Michael Brecker - tenor saxophone Randy Brecker - trumpet These are the ones I have seen live. But, in truth, nobody cares. Its a list. What matters is the delivery of the 'I know someone who....' bit; the reflected glory. The fact that truckloads of session musicians played on such and such an LP is a given. It happened everyday in that era. Its the fact that 'someone we knoe was there' that gives the story life. We (this is not a personal attack and we can all be accused of it. I know I can) feel the need to wave stuff about as a badge of honour. Study music not musicians and trivia - it matters not and contributes nothing towards our development as players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Van der Graaf Generator at the Barbican last night... trio of sexagenarians belting out a set mostly drawn from their last two albums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1179550' date='Mar 28 2011, 02:32 PM']....Study music not musicians and trivia - it matters not and contributes nothing towards our development as players....[/quote] Hey Bilbo; today I learnt about rear porting, played some Bach from the dots, learnt 3 songs for Friday and changed my strings. I also know that Michael Brecker died in 2007. None of these things had any detrimental effect on the other. Blinkers off mate. Be serious about playing and enjoy the whole of music. Tunnel vision is not a good thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Blinkers, he says! I know more jazz and rock trivia than most of you put together I must be the only bloke that reads biographies of musicians he has not got a single recording by! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoop Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Jeff Beck, Vinny Coliauta, Tony Levin, and a shedload more. All getting on in years and all ridiculously talented musicians. Musicians who are happy to continue evolving will always be relevant and "important". Musicians who don't or can't evolve (and I'm looking at YOU, Clapton) cease to be relevant. Their age, however, is completely irrelevant. Not that I always thought that way. I'm fast approaching the age of 51 and I retired from writing for Kerrang twenty years ago because I thought I was "too old" to be considered credible in that market. Instead I began writing for another publication which was considerably more mature under a [i]'nom de plume' [/i] because it was easier than carrying the "metal-head" baggage of my earlier career over with me. I still freelance for that magazine now, sometimes. I don't want to dismiss what younger people deem to be credible and relevant to them and 'their' epoch. Their opinions are valid. I feel however that in time many of them will begin to broaden their musical horizons and see that those old farts who have continued to evolve actually do have something valid and credible to say through their music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I certainly agree that it is important to let kids have 'their' heroes and villains. We may be older and wiser but that is not what it is about - its about identity and having something of your own. Each generation needs its moment in the spotlight, even if the product is weak - knowledge and wisdom come later. I am expecting it any day now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoop Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1179595' date='Mar 28 2011, 03:11 PM']I certainly agree that it is important to let kids have 'their' heroes and villains. We may be older and wiser but that is not what it is about - its about identity and having something of your own. Each generation needs its moment in the spotlight, even if the product is weak - [b]knowledge and wisdom come later. I am expecting it any day now.[/b] [/quote] Sadly, I live more in hope than expectation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1179550' date='Mar 28 2011, 02:32 PM']Anthony Jackson - bass guitar Naná Vasconcelos - percussion Michael Brecker - tenor saxophone Randy Brecker - trumpet These are the ones I have seen live. But, in truth, nobody cares. Its a list. What matters is the delivery of the 'I know someone who....' bit; the reflected glory. The fact that truckloads of session musicians played on such and such an LP is a given. It happened everyday in that era. Its the fact that 'someone we knoe was there' that gives the story life. We (this is not a personal attack and we can all be accused of it. I know I can) feel the need to wave stuff about as a badge of honour. Study music not musicians and trivia - it matters not and contributes nothing towards our development as players.[/quote] Not sure.. I can be as tiring and cynical as most, but this happend to be a fave album for me, so when...this guy mentioned he played on it in the grand scheme of waffling...me that is, as I do it a lot..., it got me thinking...and as it happened I could recall alot of the key players so was interested in what he thought about the guys he was probably in the studio with. He was suitably discreet ... He had loads of little stories about late night jazz clubs and who played there...and then we talked about golf. Not really relevant to the topic, and I am not going to name the person as he isn't a friend..just someone I know off and was talking to. He liked my bass and we got chatting.. To me it is just a story ... but I must admit to being impressed this guy could play at that level, I don't expect others to be...it was just a natter. He seemed an average guy..talked football, golf and music..whats not to like.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) I understand fully the argument with regard to bettering ones self technically as a player and understanding theory etc, however one has to ask why you picked an instrument up as a kid in the first place? Is it because you wanted to be proficient in musical theory, and technically brilliant as a player? Or was it because the music you first heard stirred enough emotion inside you to make you say to yourself "I want to play music like that". For me it was the latter, and my only motivation to play today, some 30 years since I first picked up a Columbus Jazz for the first time, remains the same. Emotion, and love for music, of many different styles. For me, it's emotion and feel first, technique second, and theory some way behind that. My lack of musical theory knowledge hasn't spoilt my love of music thus far, and my playing, as average as it may be, still makes me feel happy inside, which for me, is the [i]only[/i] reason for playing music at all. Edit: not sure how much relevance this post has to the OP, sorry if I've wandered off topic, again. Edited March 28, 2011 by Rayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 [quote name='Rayman' post='1179677' date='Mar 28 2011, 04:12 PM']I understand fully the argument with regard to bettering ones self technically as a player and understanding theory etc, however one has to ask why you picked an instrument up as a kid in the first place? Is it because you wanted to be proficient in musical theory, and technically brilliant as a player? Or was it because the music you first heard stirred enough emotion inside you to make you say to yourself "I want to play music like that". For me it was the latter, and my only motivation to play today, some 30 years since I first picked up a Columbus Jazz for the first time, remains the same. Emotion, and love for music, of many different styles. For me, it's emotion and feel first, technique second, and theory some way behind that. My lack of musical theory knowledge hasn't spoilt my love of music thus far, and my playing, as average as it may be, still makes me feel happy inside, which for me, is the [i]only[/i] reason for playing music at all.[/quote] +1 and happy birthday you old fart! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 [quote name='Clarky' post='1179682' date='Mar 28 2011, 04:14 PM']+1 and happy birthday you old fart![/quote] Cheers Geezer, I'm preparing cake and crisps as we speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 [quote name='Rayman' post='1179685' date='Mar 28 2011, 04:15 PM']Cheers Geezer, I'm preparing cake and crisps as we speak.[/quote] Curry tonight, I hope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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