Jeff Berlin Banned from Talkbass Shock!

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='1115838' date='Feb 4 2011, 08:14 PM']Be the bigger person and let it go.
It's not that important.[/quote]


Fair point.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='1115838' date='Feb 4 2011, 08:14 PM']Be the bigger person and let it go.
It's not that important.[/quote]

You say that as though I'm trying to get into an argument? I feel it's unfair that someone's being talked down in their absence by people that have never even met them and wanted to post my opinion on the subject.

I'm gonna duck out of this thread now, I don't want to get into an argument (and I apologise if that's the message I've put across) and I don't see what else can be added to this that's not already been said from my point of view.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1115866' date='Feb 4 2011, 08:32 PM']You say that as though I'm trying to get into an argument? I feel it's unfair that someone's being talked down in their absence by people that have never even met them and wanted to post my opinion on the subject.

I'm gonna duck out of this thread now, I don't want to get into an argument (and I apologise if that's the message I've put across) and I don't see what else can be added to this that's not already been said from my point of view.[/quote]Er, look at who I quoted.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='1115929' date='Feb 4 2011, 09:49 PM']Er, look at who I quoted.[/quote]


To be fair I probably did come across as the most abrasive (not towards anyone here).

[Kiwi]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1114902' date='Feb 4 2011, 08:22 AM']...which isn't a great trait to have if you're on a mission to 'educate'.[/quote]
I think it depends on teaching style

From what I understand Jeff tends to teach in person and is hands on. His written communication style tends to be how he speaks but doesn't carry any body language or non verbal cues. So while he's speaking he relies on body language to impart emotional context to support what he's saying, his written communication is effectively deprived of half its emotional content.

Its not an uncommon problem on forums...

[LawrenceH]

I think a lot of people's issues with someone like Jeff Berlin are not because he's famous, or because they don't think he's any good, but that he comes across in many posts as very didactic particularly regarding teaching/learning. He is a fantastic player and his teaching and musical approach no doubt work for some people who will succeed very well thanks to his help. But the most universally successful educators are the ones who realise that different people conceptualise problems in different ways, therefore alternative approaches are required for them to succeed. Jeff may well recognise that in 'real life' but online he does come across as taking a 'my way or the highway' attitude that is demonstrably wrong when applied in other educational arenas.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1115946' date='Feb 4 2011, 10:10 PM']I think a lot of people's issues with someone like Jeff Berlin are not because he's famous, or because they don't think he's any good, but that he comes across in many posts as very didactic particularly regarding teaching/learning. He is a fantastic player and his teaching and musical approach no doubt work for some people who will succeed very well thanks to his help. But the most universally successful educators are the ones who realise that different people conceptualise problems in different ways, therefore alternative approaches are required for them to succeed. Jeff may well recognise that in 'real life' but online he does come across as taking a 'my way or the highway' attitude that is demonstrably wrong when applied in other educational arenas.[/quote]


Indeed you have to be aware that when using the 'my way or the highway' method is that when people take the highway they will talk about you as they are driving down it.

[WHUFC BASS]

[ezbass]

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='1115950' date='Feb 4 2011, 10:14 PM']Indeed you have to be aware that when using the 'my way or the highway' method is that when people take the highway they will talk about you as they are driving down it.[/quote]
I like this very much

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='ezbass' post='1116316' date='Feb 5 2011, 10:49 AM']I like this very much [/quote]
Me to.

I'm also lovin' Angry Internet Penguin. Can we call him Lloyd?

[Doddy]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1115946' date='Feb 4 2011, 10:10 PM']I think a lot of people's issues with someone like Jeff Berlin are not because he's famous, or because they don't think he's any good, but that he comes across in many posts as very didactic particularly regarding teaching/learning. He is a fantastic player and his teaching and musical approach no doubt work for some people who will succeed very well thanks to his help. But the most universally successful educators are the ones who realise that different people conceptualise problems in different ways, therefore alternative approaches are required for them to succeed. Jeff may well recognise that in 'real life' but online he does come across as taking a 'my way or the highway' attitude that is demonstrably wrong when applied in other educational arenas.[/quote]

The thing is,like I said in an earlier post,is that to learn the actual 'rules' of music,there are not many ways to go about it. There are a lot of different ways to apply them,but there aren't many ways to actually learn or teach them.
A C major chord always has the same 3 notes. The first ledger lune under the stave(in bass clef) is an E. There aren't that many ways of teaching this.
You mention about different people conceptualising problems in different ways-yeah they do,but a lot of these concepts are applicable only after the facts have been learnt.

[Marvin]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1115946' date='Feb 4 2011, 10:10 PM']I think a lot of people's issues with someone like Jeff Berlin are not because he's famous, or because they don't think he's any good, but that he comes across in many posts as very didactic particularly regarding teaching/learning. He is a fantastic player and his teaching and musical approach no doubt work for some people who will succeed very well thanks to his help. [b]But the most universally successful educators are the ones who realise that different people conceptualise problems in different ways, therefore alternative approaches are required for them to succeed[/b]. Jeff may well recognise that in 'real life' but online he does come across as taking a 'my way or the highway' attitude that is demonstrably wrong when applied in other educational arenas.[/quote]
Totally agree with you.

[quote name='Doddy' post='1116340' date='Feb 5 2011, 11:12 AM']The thing is,like I said in an earlier post,is that to learn the actual 'rules' of music,there are not many ways to go about it. There are a lot of different ways to apply them,but there aren't many ways to actually learn or teach them.
A C major chord always has the same 3 notes. The first ledger lune under the stave(in bass clef) is an E. There aren't that many ways of teaching this.
You mention about different people conceptualising problems in different ways-yeah they do,but a lot of these concepts are applicable only after the facts have been learnt.[/quote]
There's a difference between passing on knowledge and educating/teaching someone. A good teacher will do so much more, and will adopt a variety of options in order to enable a student to understand and learn for themselves.

A one size fits all approach (or my way or the highway) is doing a diservice to the student. And anyone adopting it really should consider whether they should be teaching.

[Marvin]

My comment may not be relevant to the thread as such as it was more of a general point rather specific to Jeff Berlin. I know nothing of how he actually teaches and what is reported on forums and through other media is often a world away from what is actually the case.

I can only assume he doesn't advocate quick fixes, which is no bad thing.

[7string]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1116393' date='Feb 5 2011, 11:59 AM']A one size fits all approach (or my way or the highway) is doing a diservice to the student. And anyone adopting it really should consider whether they should be teaching.[/quote]

I done a bit of teaching and sometimes have had to come up with new ways of getting a point across. One size doesn't fit all and this why teaching is both challenging and rewarding.


IMO, some people (like Jeff Berlin) don't like the fact that some bass players get recognition and fame without having a 'proper' musical education. You don't have to study music theory or read it in order to play bass and sometimes those players hit the big time. I think there's a feeling of 'injustice' on his part.

[RhysP]

[quote name='7string' post='1116608' date='Feb 5 2011, 03:14 PM']IMO, some people (like Jeff Berlin) don't like the fact that some bass players get recognition and fame without having a 'proper' musical education. You don't have to study music theory or read it in order to play bass and sometimes those players hit the big time. I think there's a feeling of 'injustice' on his part.[/quote]
That simply not the case. He's stated many times there are many styles of music where you can make a very good living without needing any formal musical education or knowledge whatsoever & he has no problem with that.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Jase' post='1116839' date='Feb 5 2011, 06:53 PM']This is rather good
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo8A-zKMihY"]Jeff doing Jack[/url]
Cool little solo at 3.00 too![/quote]What a great voice too, respect!

[Doddy]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1116393' date='Feb 5 2011, 11:59 AM']There's a difference between passing on knowledge and educating/teaching someone. A good teacher will do so much more, and will adopt a variety of options in order to enable a student to understand and learn for themselves.

A one size fits all approach (or my way or the highway) is doing a diservice to the student. And anyone adopting it really should consider whether they should be teaching.[/quote]

But,I feel it does more of a disservice to the student if all they are taught is licks and shapes and songs(often with Tab)-which,let's be honest,a lot of people do.
If a student is into metal,then there is no point comparing everything to Miles Davis,but the notes and the theory behind it don't change. You can adapt how you apply the chord or scale ("Hey...this is the scale used in 'Wishing Well" or whatever.),but there is only one way to spell a major chord or a pentatonic scale. So,like I've said you can adapt to the student stylistically and in it's application,but not really on the actual information.

[woaheasylang]

all i can say is jeff berlin is an amazing bassist.. you can really tell that hes passionate about music and he doesnt seem to be the type to sugarcoat his critic.. i would be honored to receive his honest opinion(positive or negative) about my playing.. it would really challenge me to be a better musician

[chardbass]

[quote name='dmccombe7' post='1115036' date='Feb 4 2011, 10:46 AM']Yep I saw Jeff in 80's with John McLaughlan and an unkown percussionist and they were excellent.
Typical jazz stuff and although I was into Rock and progressive at the time I could still appreciate the musicianship.

I guess not to everyone's taste but that's what makes bass playing interesting - to us anyways - LOL !!!

Dave[/quote]

Was that Trilok Gurtu? I saw them in Newcastle in the late 80s and groaned when I saw the perc set up (sensing a lack of drum-orientated groove) but it was amazing.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1116928' date='Feb 5 2011, 07:56 PM']But,I feel it does more of a disservice to the student if all they are taught is licks and shapes and songs(often with Tab)-which,let's be honest,a lot of people do.
If a student is into metal,then there is no point comparing everything to Miles Davis,but the notes and the theory behind it don't change. You can adapt how you apply the chord or scale ("Hey...this is the scale used in 'Wishing Well" or whatever.),but there is only one way to spell a major chord or a pentatonic scale. So,like I've said you can adapt to the student stylistically and in it's application,but not really on the actual information.[/quote]


I think we're probably saying the same thing. The information to be conveyed is the same but presented differently to the student, given a context the student can understand.

I actually gave up lessons because the manner in which the lessons were presented weren't teaching me anything. TAB was used, I was given the major scale - which I already knew - to practice in a shape on the fretboard and a couple of walking bass lines but given no context of how they related to the scales or how they were constructed. I needed to know the hows and whys in order to understand what was being taught - that wasn't happening so I jacked them in.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1117665' date='Feb 6 2011, 01:57 PM']I think we're probably saying the same thing. The information to be conveyed is the same but presented differently to the student, given a context the student can understand.

I actually gave up lessons because the manner in which the lessons were presented weren't teaching me anything. TAB was used, I was given the major scale - which I already knew - to practice in a shape on the fretboard and a couple of walking bass lines but given no context of how they related to the scales or how they were constructed. I needed to know the hows and whys in order to understand what was being taught - that wasn't happening so I jacked them in.[/quote]

Exactly-it's all about the context,the information is always the same.

The sad thing is there are a lot of people about who teach in this manner-and it does as disservice to the student.
It's easy to write a Tab showing a scale and move it about,but it doesn't actually show you anything. What are the notes? How do they relate to one another? What can you do with the scales? What other positions can you play them? On it's own the pattern is not going to do much good,if you don't know how to work with it. But it's easy to 'teach' and is a shortcut that misses out a lot of relevant information.These teachers,I feel,are the kind of teachers and players who generally get really offended by Jeff Berlin,because he's an advocate of studying and that there are no shortcuts,and therefor it leads to arguments that there are loads of other learning methods,when really there aren't.

[ElCapitan]

[quote name='woaheasylang' post='1117334' date='Feb 6 2011, 05:43 AM']all i can say is jeff berlin is an amazing bassist.. you can really tell that hes passionate about music and he doesnt seem to be the type to sugarcoat his critic.. i would be honored to receive his honest opinion(positive or negative) about my playing.. it would really challenge me to be a better musician[/quote]


Welcome to the forum Jeff.

[witterth]

I dont like Jeff Berlin.
his opinions are as dull as his music that I've heard.... and I like Stu Hamm, so thats going some.
self opinonated/ self agrandising/theory obsessed bore/dull dull dull dull
but thats only what I think
classical music? write sommat thysen you geyt!!

did I mention I dont like him?

sorry chaps, Ive gone too far havent I?
feel better for saying it though

Edited February 6, 2011 by witterth

[Big_Stu]

[quote name='witterth' post='1117822' date='Feb 6 2011, 04:32 PM']I dont like Jeff Berlin.
his opinions are as dull as his music that I've heard.... and I like Stu Hamm, so thats going some.
self opinonated/ self agrandising/theory obsessed bore/dull dull dull dull
but thats only what I think
classical music? write sommat thysen you geyt!!

did I mention I dont like him?

sorry chaps, Ive gone too far havent I?
feel better for saying it though[/quote]

Stop beating about the bush & say what you really feel !!
I guess you mellowed in your edit to make it kinder?

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='7string' post='1115770' date='Feb 4 2011, 07:04 PM']I suppose famous players get so used to getting compliments that criticism (or someone disagreeing with them) can be hard to handle. After all, if you do a bass clinic, I don't suppose people would turn up who don't like you!

Why do famous players have to go on forums as themselves anyway. Why not keep anonymous and just enjoy the banter![/quote]

Sorry for change of subject - just a quickie.
I think I recognise your signature banner bass from Moffat bass day ?

Dave

Edited February 6, 2011 by dmccombe7