Is standard bass tuning to 4ths or 5ths?

[AttitudeCastle]

Hey There

I'm slightly confused *EDIT* -> Completely for got about the Ascending against Decending thing! Thats what happens when you only play fully chromatic instruments haha! Thanks guys!

Is the tuning E-A-D-G

Or B-E-A-D-G-C-F or what have you, 4ths or 5ths?

As the circle 5ths is B E A D G C F Bb Eb AB Db Gb *edit notes* [ This is the circle of 5ths backwards which is the same as the cycle of 4ths]

Or is it just the difference in flats and sharps?

As with the circle of 5ths you sharpen the 7th,

"The cycle of 5ths work slightly differently from the cycle of 4ths, in that we now start on the 5th and sharpen the seventh. So starting with C Major, we start on the 5th degree, in this case a G and sharpen the seventh, in this case F becaomes F#. So the key of G contains one sharp; F#."

^ that is what it says in my school music notes

I'm probably just confused as i have confused my self most likely,

But with 4ths If you take C major ) C D E F G A B

"The cycle says we start on the 4th Degree of the scale, in this case an F and flatten the 4th degree, turning it from B into Bb. This gives us the key of F which contains one flat (Bb)"

^ more from my notes, and i know/understand that as its the key of F and Bbs that Brass music revolves around more often then not,

From F then if you repeat the process the next key would be Bb, and if you carry on till you have Cb with 7 flats, which are Cb, Db, Eb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb

"Notice that there's no black key between B & C and E & F? Yet we have 7 flats? Well it's comes down to 'Enharmonics'. Cb is actually just another name for B and Fb is another name for E. They are the same notes, but called different names. The notes of Cb and B are said to be 'Enharmonic', as they are actually the same note, but have different names depending on which key we're playing in. The same is true for Fb and E.

The reason we don't just calle Fb an E and Cb a B is because each note can only be contained within a Key once, therefore we must call these notes by other names to fit into the pattern."
^ More music notes with a diagram of the piano


My scales theory has always been wanting =S

Anyone shed light? Surely a bass is tuned to 5ths then?

Thanks and Regards!
A confused AC

This is important to me a i need to know this inside out for 1) bass playing curisosity and 2) It applys strongly to the harmonic series on the Trombone and the slide points and which notes are in which position through the octaves!

Thanks again! And sorry for a long post!

Edited November 7, 2010 by AttitudeCastle

[AttitudeCastle]

Note: I don't wish to go into the realm of theoretical keys such as Db and C# or Cb and B etc

as non existant sharps and flats and keys don't help answer the question (at the simpler level my brain can take!) and they generally confuse me haha

[skej21]

It's tuned to 4ths because the only way you can work out intervals is if they are descending or ascending.

When tuning, you start with the bottom (lowest) string and work UP to the top (highest) string, which means you are dealing with ASCENDING intervals.

This means that the bass is tuned in 4ths because E to A ascending is a perfect fourth (rather than if it were descending, then it would be a 5th)

For example, A is a 4th above E. So B to E is a fourth upwards, E to A is a fourth upwards, A to D is a fourth upwards, D to G is a fourth upwards and G to C is a fourth upwards.

Might be a bit of a lengthy explanation but hope it helps?

[skej21]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' post='1015319' date='Nov 7 2010, 03:03 PM']As the circle 5ths is B E A D G C F Bb Eb AB Db Gb[/quote]

Also, I think you have confused yourself a little bit, the note sequence above is a circle of [b]fourths[/b] (not a circle of fifths).

A circle of fifths is - C G D A E B Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F (which is the circle of fourths backwards)

Hope that helps

Edited November 7, 2010 by skej21

[ThomBassmonkey]

When you talk about 4ths and 5ths between strings, you're talking in ascending scales. If you're in the key of E major (E minor would have the same 4th and 5th anyway for the record but with a flattened 3rd), then E is the first, then F#, G#, A, so A is the 4th from E.

If you were tuning to 5ths (something I've been tempted to do before so I can have a larger range on a 4 string, but I'm happy on 5 strings at the moment) if you started at E, it'd be E, B, F#, C#.

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='skej21' post='1015329' date='Nov 7 2010, 03:10 PM']It's tuned to 4ths because the only way you can work out intervals is if they are descending or ascending.

When tuning, you start with the bottom (lowest) string and work UP to the top (highest) string, which means you are dealing with ASCENDING intervals.

This means that the bass is tuned in 4ths because E to A ascending is a perfect fourth (rather than if it were descending, then it would be a 5th)

For example, A is a 4th above E. So B to E is a fourth upwards, E to A is a fourth upwards, A to D is a fourth upwards, D to G is a fourth upwards and G to C is a fourth upwards.

Might be a bit of a lengthy explanation but hope it helps?[/quote]


[quote name='skej21' post='1015335' date='Nov 7 2010, 03:17 PM']Also, I think you have confused yourself a little bit, the note sequence above is a circle of [b]fourths[/b] (not a circle of fifths).

A circle of fifths is - C G D A E B Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F (which is the circle of fourths backwards)

Hope that helps [/quote]


[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1015337' date='Nov 7 2010, 03:19 PM']When you talk about 4ths and 5ths between strings, you're talking in ascending scales. If you're in the key of E major (E minor would have the same 4th and 5th anyway for the record but with a flattened 3rd), then E is the first, then F#, G#, A, so A is the 4th from E.

If you were tuning to 5ths (something I've been tempted to do before so I can have a larger range on a 4 string, but I'm happy on 5 strings at the moment) if you started at E, it'd be E, B, F#, C#.[/quote]

AHHHH! The Ascending and Decending!

I feel like a fool, thats why! Yes!

=S Sorry for wasting your time =/ and thank you very much!

Like i said my theory is somewhat lacking haha thanks for helping me clear this up

[AttitudeCastle]

I'm testing the water here as i feel very foolish indeed, BUT

surely then its 4ths from E-A-D-G

But if you were "tuning backwards" as it were from Highest to lowest, G-D-A-E (normal tuning just saying it backwards?)

Then its in 5ths? Ie Decending, but E to G is Ascending so its 4ths?

^ Is that correct or am i still wrong and confusing myself?

[Lord Sausage]

Thats the most confusing thing i've ever read. I've got a degree in music and that almost made me unlearn music!

[skej21]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' post='1015353' date='Nov 7 2010, 03:36 PM']I'm testing the water here as i feel very foolish indeed, BUT

surely then its 4ths from E-A-D-G

But if you were "tuning backwards" as it were from Highest to lowest, G-D-A-E (normal tuning just saying it backwards?)

Then its in 5ths? [u][b]Ie Decending, but E to G is Ascending so its 4ths?[/b][/u]

^ Is that correct or am i still wrong and confusing myself?[/quote]

If you were tuning backwards BUT still ascending, as in GDAE in place of EADG retrospectively, then yes. That would be in fifths, because in ascending intervals, G to D is a perfect 5th, D to A is a perfect 5th and A to E is a perfect 5th.

As for the bit in bold/underlined, you've lost me entirely with that lol

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='skej21' post='1015363' date='Nov 7 2010, 03:47 PM']If you were tuning backwards BUT still ascending, as in GDAE in place of EADG retrospectively, then yes. That would be in fifths, because in ascending intervals, G to D is a perfect 5th, D to A is a perfect 5th and A to E is a perfect 5th.

As for the bit in bold/underlined, you've lost me entirely with that lol[/quote]

Haha thats fine because thats the only bit which is wrong in that post!!

Thanks ever so much man!

[AttitudeCastle]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' post='1015357' date='Nov 7 2010, 03:41 PM']Thats the most confusing thing i've ever read. I've got a degree in music and that almost made me unlearn music![/quote]

Haha!

=S My bad!

[skej21]

[quote name='AttitudeCastle' post='1015447' date='Nov 7 2010, 05:20 PM']Haha thats fine because thats the only bit which is wrong in that post!!

Thanks ever so much man![/quote]

Anytime

That's what this forum is for... helping other bass players in a friendly way

Glad I could help mate.