alexclaber

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1502789574' post='3353499']My starters for 10: a new BBII something along the lines of the new Markbass Traveller 123: 800W and great performance in the mids, as well as the lows, but in a significantly lighter package which is, of course, your forte.[/quote]

I don't understand what about the Big Baby 2 doesn't already fulfil these criteria?

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1502789574' post='3353499']A new look for your range that leaves the owner thinking "wow, these are gorgeous!" (and not "ok these are great sounding cabs but shame about that metal grille look"). There I've said it![/quote]

That's why we offer optional cloth grills and further customisation like unique cloth, different piping, different baffle colours etc.

Confused!

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1502788424' post='3353486']- a teaser on where the new amp is heading (power, price-point, size / weight, tone, class D or class A/B / Mosfet / valve, preamp, EQ etc!) [and why me and scrumpymike shouldn't worry that this is going to be an expensive detour from your excellent cabs in a crowded and v competitive marketplace?][/quote]

Watch the broadcast later today!

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1502788424' post='3353486']- when (if?) Gen 4 cabs are coming out and what we might have to look forward to from your new cab product range?
[/quote]

I guess my question would be "what do you all want from Gen 4?"

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1502786707' post='3353463']Last time I saw him - about a year ago - he spoke about the amp they`re developing, sounded like the dream amp for bassists.[/quote]

I'm excited about it! Looking back through our records, we actually started the amp project in 2011 but it got going properly just over two years ago.

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1502784797' post='3353435']
You could always tune into his Facebook Live videos, think there's another one today. Been pretty good so far & he's happy to discuss his plans for the future, even guitar cabs! [/quote]

Thanks!

[quote name='largo' timestamp='1502784797' post='3353435']Still hasn't answered my question about tolex & cloth finish on the 12" range of cabs though.[/quote]

I definitely did!

https://www.facebook.com/BarefacedAudio/videos/10155648483312704/

(about twelve minutes in - apologies for the sheer quantity of shoulder shrugging when answering )

The additional machine screws (aka bolts) are spares. There are only two T-nuts per handle in the cab, so you can't use more than two machine screws in each handle, one per end.

All the instructions are here:

http://barefacedbass.com/product-range/T-shirtsandspares.htm

Do not use wood screws! Email if you need help.

PS - using the word "about", when talking specs isn't great either.

Saying "about" is far more accurate than being definitive. Max peak SPL of any loudspeaker varies across its bandwidth and varies with the content of the signal and thus the power compression. Quoted max SPL specs are usually based on a simple arithmetic calculation of adding power handling or amp power output (converted to dB gain) to nominal sensitivity. They're an approximation at best.

OK, I'll open up a challenge - find me a commercially produced, powered 2x18 subwoofer, at any cost, that puts out circa 130dB max SPL. Don't just accept marketing spiel... validate it!

The LF1400 puts out 130dB max continuous SPL. Max peak SPL is about 6dB higher and looking at how other companies quote their specs is probably the one we should be quoting. I'll change it on the website. Thanks!

I don't generally like to generalise but if you wanted to make a cheap speaker that sounded good for bass guitar and didn't need to play loud at all, then a typical low cost 8" driver tends to tick a lot of the boxes - the T/S parameters and cone behaviour tend to fall into the right ranges for good bass tone. Consequently I've heard many 8" beginner combos sound far better than more expensive 12"or 15" combos for home practice. Terrible if you have to turn up loud but that's not what they're for!

There's not a huge difference in off axis output and it clearly varies with frequency...

Anyway I find it interesting

I think the thing I've found most interesting is how even those who know how to read these plots are doing so either with a degree of bias or don't understand the field as well as they think.

As I said in my earlier response, the on and off-axis plots should be coincident at the lowest anechoic frequencies - if they aren't then there's a measurement error or a graphing error. I think it would be reasonable to assume 400Hz is that point based on the information we have.

Once we correct those graphs we see one driver has the same response on and off-axis to about 1.2kHz, whilst the other driver's response diverges from 600Hz upwards, a whole octave lower. We also see that the former driver looks like it achieves near flat power response (this is the sum of all the on and off-axis responses) to about 3Khz.

I'm not quite sure how that amounts to "not a huge difference"? I suspect the ears would tell the truth!

I’ll try to keep comments to a minimum, as I think the measurements speak for themselves.

Yes, I think they do! Especially if you level match the curves on this graph as on the other other speaker's graph - line 1 (on-axis) and line 2 (30 deg) should be on top of each other until the dispersion starts to narrow, so line 2 is shown over 3dB quieter than it really is. A more paranoid person might assume you'd done that deliberately to make the Barefaced driver's dispersion appear less good...

For the record, they were taken at a distance of 1 metre, in a cabinet 33cm wide with the driver at a height of 1.3 metres from the floor. Measurement software was Liberty Audiosuite. The response is anechoic down to about 300Hz. I took measurements on axis, and at 30 and 45 degrees off axis. As the 45-degree ones don’t really provide any extra information, I’ll keep things simple and not show them.

Here’s the frequency response of the Barefaced driver on axis (top) and at 30 degrees off axis (lower).



Nice smooth response apart from the wide bump just above 2kHz, which deserves further investigation. The upper -6dB point is at 3.5kHz, which means that, without any crossover on the LF, the crossover point must at around 3.5kHz.

Note the off-axis response.

Your assumption on crossover point is incorrect! I don't design for on-axis response because 99% of the people in a room are not on-axis.

Have you tried the FR800 with a modern modeller (Helix / Kemper / Fractal) for guitar use?

I have no doubt it would be a great fit for bass, but having 1 rig is very appealing to me.

Are they only built to order or do you have stock? I'm wondering if I should request a visit and bring my Helix down.

I haven't but a few customers have. We need to get hold of a good modeller and let the guitarists here loose with it! The only difference between a loudspeaker for a guitar modeller and a bass modeller is that the bass one needs to be able to go lower and move more air to generate greater quantities of bass - so if it can model bass (which the FR800 can) then there's no reason it can't model guitar, it's just in a bigger box than need be for a dedicated guitar modelling cab.

We have some demo FR800s you can try/borrow if you visit!

It's amazing how you can say one thing on a forum and it be so misunderstood. Let me clarify.

IF, and only if, you can't hear your cab when standing right in front of it, then the best solution on a small stage is to get further away from it. If you can't move yourself away from it then the only option is to move the cab further away from you. It doesn't matter what the cab is (assuming its loud enough so its a dispersion, not output issue), increasing distance from it will move you closer to being on-axis without having to point it at the ceiling.

Based on my own experiences, our testing, and feedback from now thousands of customers, Barefaced cabs are particularly good at NOT needing you to stand at a distance, their dispersion is far far better than the norm (because we've put a lot of effort into making cabs with better dispersion as I think it's one of the most critical factors in getting great live sound from venue to venue).

All I'm doing is explaining solutions to a hypothetical problem for someone who is considering purchasing our cabs and pointing out that he doesn't need to buy two cabs, one will be sufficient - and that hypothetical problem is not that likely to be a real problem because of the performance of the cabs!

Regarding the vertical dispersion of the Big Twin 2 (vertical 212) vs the Big Baby 2 (112), the BT2 is slightly easier to hear when you're up close on a confined space, which is contrary to stevie's assumption based on the oversimplified physics. As I keep repeating, treating all drivers of a given nominal diameter of having identical dispersion due to an assumption of 100% pistonic behaviour is deeply misleading. The other option is two Big Baby 2 cabs, where the increased stacked height helps out for taller bassists or confined stages and having two HF drivers with independent adjustment gives quite a lot of control with respect to varied room acoustics and stage layouts.

Ironically it's the smaller gigs where the height would be of most benefit- sometimes I'm pinned up again the rig, right foot by the high-hat stand, left foot by the keyboard stand. The high end is firing between my legs, brushing my nutsack on the way through! 😄

Yes, the small stage dilemma. One approach taken is to use a wedge cab but the problem with that is that small stages tend to go hand in hand with relatively low ceilings, so you end up with your sound bouncing off the ceiling, that sound mixes with the direct sound out front (and at other bandmates' listening positions) and you end up with a loss of clarity for everyone else, hence why we don't make wedge bass cabs. Your other suggestion of a very tall rig ends up with the problem that if you're standing that close to it you simply can't turn it up to be balanced in the mix for the rest of the band/audience without them being drowned out at your listening position.

So the best solution on these smallest stages is to put your bass rig somewhere further away, even the other side of the drummer, firing across the stage. That gives the cab the space to disperse the sound vertically to your ears without suffering excessive ceiling bounce and the space for you to turn it up without ending up with an unbalanced mix at your listening position.

Back to the dispersion subject - the sound coming from any cone driver starts with the movement of the voice coil former. If a driver has an infinitely stiff one piece diaphragm then it will generate sound equally at all frequencies at all parts of the diaphragm. If the driver's diaphragm has any degree of flexibility then it's radiating area will shrink with increasing frequency (decreasing wavelength). The rate at which the radiating area shrinks can be controlled by varying the cone stiffness, cone damping, surround stiffness, surround damping, the relative masses of all the moving parts, etc. Get that right and your 12" driver acts as a progressively smaller driver with increasing frequency, thus shifting the beaming frequency higher and higher.

This then allows the crossover point to be higher than in a conventional design which assumes a pistonic woofer (not that they ever are!) which allows the use of a smaller compression driver. Increasing the power handling and lower frequency extension of a compression driver is an engineering nightmare, with everything you do to improve those two parameters having a negative effect on its sonic performance as a high frequency driver (greater moving mass is bad, greater inductance is bad, larger diaphragm is bad, greater throat compression is bad, etc etc). Hence, getting the same audio quality from a compression driver which can be crossed over an octave lower than another increases the cost about fivefold.

I'm still interested in the stacking issue though. Can we expand on how and why a pair of vertically stacked speakers might be unwise in a standard gigging situation? Accusations of overkill don't count, by the way! ☺

We had people order two before and I've said "start with one, buy another if you need it". No-one has yet ended up with two Big Twin 2s!

When you say "stood right by the rig" how close to it are we talking?

That makes no sense, Alex. Beaming is not complex. It depends on the diameter of the diaphragm.

Honestly, if you truly believe that then there's no point in me continuing this discussion. You're entitled to your own opinion of course, but you aren't entitled to your own facts, and we at Barefaced are not the first company to take advantage of the unavoidable break-up modes in any high sensitivity large diameter driver and manipulate them to our own ends. This is engineering, not physics, and the oversimplifications you like to post are rarely the whole truth and sometimes the opposite of the truth in the real world.

Furthermore we use an excellent compression driver on a large waveguide, nothing like a "cheap tweeter". Regarding some of my other points, I look forward to seeing your example of a 3-way passive crossover that is totally unaffected by voice coil heating.

But the proof is in the pudding - we have a number of bassists using our cabs specifically for FRFR modelling applications with things like Kempers, and they've all been extremely impressed. We also sell an active version of the Big Baby 2, the FR800, which is growing in popularity as more bassists discover quite how good it is. The feedback is out there, the reviews are out there. We have demo cabs available to borrow. We have a one month trial period for all customers in Europe. It isn't in our interest to sell the Emperor's New Clothes as they'd just get returned.

Lots of claims with no actual proof as usual, Alex. Two 12" drivers will start to beam below 1kHz and there's no amount of marketing hype that can fix that.

This is absolutely not true - it is only true if a driver is 100% pistonic and that is NEVER the case. The radiating area of a driver only behaves pistonically at very low frequencies - once into the midrange the behaviour is very complex and by controlling how it behaves you can control the dispersion. If your claims were true then guitar cabs would be completely unusable.

What exactly are the problems with using a midrange driver, Alex? Bergantino, Vanderkley, Greenboy and Duke Le Jeune seem to be happy with them.

Inconsistent shifts in polar response across the frequency spectrum, changes in frequency response at higher level due to crossover issues, inconsistent dynamic response, often lower sensitivity, reduced tolerance of power amp clipping and thus greater need for amplifier headroom, etc etc. Hardly any of Bergantino and Vanderkley's production has been of cabs with midrange drivers, there are probably more Barefaced cabs out there with them and the only Bergantino cabs I can think of with a midrange driver is the NV115 and 215 which are far from accurate response.

The problem with a 2x12" + tweeter configuration is that, even if they are flat on axis, they will exhibit a large midrange suckout off axis unless the HF unit is crossed at a fairly low frequency, which is not the case here. Above-axis suckouts are going to be a problem too.

Except the Big Baby 2 and Big Twin 2 do not suffer from a large midrange suckout off-axis because of the way they're designed. I don't know of any bass cabs with midrange drivers that have more consistent polar response than the BB2 and BT2. We would not have replaced our previous 3-way Big Baby and Big Twin models with the BB2 and BT2 if they did not have at least as good off-axis response (and other performance improvements).

From all my experience, testing and feedback from other bassists I've found that adding a midrange driver to a bass cab creates a whole load of problems which you can't design out, they're inherent to the concept. However it is impossible for the DIY/hobbyist loudspeaker designer to solve the problems with 2-way (woofer+tweeter) designs because it requires designing a better woofer and you can't do that without the buying power to get a production run made, hence adding a midrange driver is the next best solution.

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1493202790' post='3286405']I want my gear to survive the rigours of journey/load in and out/four bands using it in one evening. The only thing I'm scared of is having to go to the trouble and expense of repair/replacement in the event things go awry by curfew. Also from the front end, I'm not prepared to throw good money at gear just to prove a point (which takes us back to my [i]big is best[/i] comment above) and then sell on at a loss because I'm unhappy.[/quote]

And that makes total sense to me. If other bass players are using my gear I'd rather have a rig that never even comes close to its limits so that even the most moronic behaviour from gear-sharing-bassists won't risk damaging anything. Plus I'm not particularly bothered about my own rig being either small or light - if I was gigging at the moment I'd turn up with a Big Twin 2 for everything.

And if you have an amp that works with your larger cab but doesn't have enough power to push a smaller cab to the same loudness, then there's no reason to downsize unless you really want or need a smaller rig. That's why I'll recommend a Super Twin to one bassist but a Super Compact to another bassist whose tone/output requirements are the same but their amps are different.

I like big rigs!

But if you're a fan of big rigs, bear in mind that if you take two cabs, a 1x12" and the matching 2x12" or a 2x10" and the matching 4x10", there is only a 6dB difference in max loudness between the two. That 6dB could be the difference between being heard or sounding good, or it could just be 6dB of spare headroom. And if you've done much recording you'll know that 6dB isn't exactly a big deal with an instrument as dynamic as bass guitar.

Also, bear in mind that in the exact same band on the exact same gigs, one bassist could need a rig 6dB louder than the other because that one plays with greater dynamics, a bit more bottom end in their tone, likes a cleaner sound, likes less midrange in their sound, likes to be a bit louder in the mix, etc. I know that I usually need more output than other bassists in the same situation because I play with a lot of dynamics, tend to sit loud in the mix and sometimes want a ton of bottom end.

So before you judge a bassist for using what seems like an impossibly small rig, remember that they're a different musician with different needs. Sure, going from a 8x10" to a 1x10" is a big jump (we've had someone do that recently and I had to point out that maybe he needed another 1x10" when it didn't sound as big as he hoped!) but halving or doubling a rig isn't that much.

My thanks to anyone playing a Barefaced rig, however huge or tiny it is - and hopefully it makes you sound better than anything else!

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1493122324' post='3285755']
Could we please dispense with the stupid and patronising car analogies? Thank you!
[/quote]

Can you suggest some better ones, considering that 99.9% of musicians have no understanding of what a decibel is?

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1493035368' post='3284982']
That's a surprise Alex, since the cab he mentioned as 'how the hell do you cope' was one of yours!

I was really addressing the OP's post and by saying 'decent single 12' I thought I'd made it clear I was talking about the Barefaced mentioned and a lot of others that utilise the best of modern driver design to enable us to go out with much reduced kit in terms of weight and speaker acreage.

I was specifically referring to your single 12's because the OP referred to them and saying that the claims made for your speakers are perfectly reasonable in terms of the technology. There's no magic just good use of technology. In saying you 'completely disagree' I assume you are telling everyone that a single Barefaced 12 isn't enough to keep up with the band for 80% of bassists. Is that what you are saying?
[/quote]

There's a spectacular amount of misunderstanding in this thread!!!

So I'll try to clear things up:

1. The OP's post was incorrect to start with. It asks "how the hell do you gig with a 10" or 12" and then refers to photos of a tiny rig with a Barefaced Compact. That isn't a tiny rig. A Barefaced Compact is a 1x15" cab which is bigger than many 2x10" cabs and more efficient than many 4x10" cabs. So we've really got off to a great start there... ;-)

2. The OP is usually using a single 15" cab (yes it has a midrange driver too but that doesn't make it any louder) for his gigs. That cab is no louder than the cab he referred to as being too small in his post. Aaaarghhhh!!!

3. My point about disagreeing with the statement that "80% of people would be fine with a single 12" comes from that fact that isn't true unless you have a really really good 12" speaker and an amp that can push it hard. Go around telling most bassists they can gig with any 12" and they'll laugh at you because it isn't true.

4. Basically it comes down to this one thing - grouping speakers and judging their output or tone by nominal diameter is a really bad idea. For bass players you'd be better off grouping them by volume displacement (cone area x excursion) and the product of sensivity and thermal power handling (efficiency x wattage - which could also be considered the product of three things, cone area, magnet strength and voice coil size).

The problem is that the only thing you SEE with a cab is the size of the speaker. The things that really matter are hidden.

So maybe a better analogy is rating how fast cars are based on what colour they are. "How the hell can you win that race in a blue car? I couldn't imagine trying to go that fast without being in a red car!"

My final point is that the OP could gig with a Super Compact with a 500W amp powering it - it would be as loud as his current rig. He just doesn't know that because he hasn't tried it. But he's scared of it, he needs the safety blanket of a bigger rig. That's fine, lots of people are like that. But it's a shame when one's need for a visual safety blanket causes an apparent attack on those who are happily using smaller but equally loud rigs.

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1493033536' post='3284951']The Big One one I won at the Bash is a 15/6. It's been fine in most circumstances...[/quote]

The single 12" driver found in our Super Midget, Super Compact and Big Baby 2 can go as loud as that. The only limitation would be generating quite as much output in the lows but it's a pretty close run thing, it just sounds tighter.

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1493031207' post='3284913']Phil isnt trying to sell anything and I agree with his general assessment - 80% of people would be fine with a single 12[/quote]

I completely disagree with this.

It's like saying that 80% of cars are fine with a 1 litre engine. It totally depends on the specifics of that engine. Give it direct injection, sequential turbocharging and hybrid assistance and properly optimise it and yes, you can get hundreds of horsepower and a good working torque curve. Get it straight out of an old Austin Metro and watch most of the 80% drive it to the scrap yard instead of their gig.

Paul/Nancy - aren't you just using a single 15"?

Fantastic, you lot are just brilliant! We want as diverse a range of pickups as possible to make sure the circuitry is compatible with everything, so we'd like everything you have however generic, weird, cheap, expensive, common, rare, etc.

Please send all pickups and preamps to:

Barefaced Ltd
Unit C Level 1 North
New England House
Brighton
BN1 4GH

Include any info about what they are, your return address and your T-shirt size (they're a pretty neat fit once they've been washed a few times, so if you're between sizes tell us the larger size).

Many many thanks! Very excited about how awesome the end result of this project will be.

Alex

Hi everyone!

We're working on some very cool preamp circuitry here at Barefaced and we need as many pickups as possible to test it with. All pickups will be returned in perfect condition after our testing is done, along with a free T-shirt to say thanks. Active preamps too. We basically need to cover the full range of impedances, inductances, output levels, frequency response and so on. Can anyone help?

Thanks!

Alex