R Baer

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1410372291' post='2548728'] I see that the Series II ML112 cabs are coming out soon. Roger is quoted on Talkbass as having made a few changes to the cabinet to incrementally improve it further. I'm definitely interested...though I need more cabs like I need a hole in the head. [/quote] Hoping to have some ML112 Series II cabs heading to Bass Direct in the near future.

I used to play a room in Hollywood that was the same way. Long rectangular room with a raised stage at one end. The celling was low on that part of the room, maybe only 7' tall on stage. Then the room opened up to about 12' tall for everything but the last 10' or so, where the roof sloped back down. I could always get a decent stage mix, but it was literally impossible to get a good room sound in that place. We won't even bring up the sound guy's "skills".

[quote name='Kevsy71' timestamp='1397041148' post='2419967'] Last gig was in a low ceilinged pub, rectangular room divided by a brick fireplace. I had two Baer ML112s on the hard floor, horizontally stacked, approx. 30cm from the wall. Low bass (30Hz) was cut, slight boost at 250Hz, slight cuts at 800Hz and 2KHz. A bassist in the audience said there was distortion and bass pooling, especially in the corners. We're playing there again in two weeks, so having read the advice I'm raising the stack. And only using what I rescued from the garage: a length of pine, an old shelf, and two floor mats from a 2005 Vauxhall Zafira 1.6i.[/quote] I would recommend taking the Eden out of its rack and putting it on the ML112's stacked vertically. You will notice a difference in low end response due to the decreased coupling with the floor. Keep in mind that you are always going to run into bass frequencies building up in the corners of a room. Some rooms will be worse than others.

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1380620797' post='2227845'] The driver in question is excellent for bass guitar. The damage is a clear case of both excursion and thermal overpowering. Most cheap bass cabs are tuned too high which means they'll unload on low note fundamentals. Having your volume control at 65% does not mean you're not using full power - you could easily hit full power with all your gain controls at 30% if you have a fairly hot bass and pluck hard. It clearly isn't a case for a warranty claim but Blue Aran's reasoning is incorrect. We have hundreds of 3015 in use in Compacts and Super Fifteens and none have ever failed - we've had the odd manufacturing related warranty return (misaligned cone, dustcap unglueing, etc) but no-one has ever blown one. Ironically we have far fewer 3015LFs out there (in Big Ones and Dubsters) but we've had two blown (both thermal failure with ~1000W amps). [/quote] +1 The 3015 is a great driver for a bass cabinet. Per the Eminence website "Recommended for vented professional audio enclosures for full range...." Full range would include a bass cab as well. Pretty much any driver can be pushed too hard into over-excursion, or fed enough power to burn out the voice coil. In my experience, there is a tendency for the term "super 12" or "super 15" to be taken as meaning these cabinets are capable of handling anything you can throw at them. Regardless of how well they perform, every cab does in fact has it's limits.

Everyone's a comedian!

I think a lot of bassist find it odd to dial out upper mids or treble, because most players are used to turning those frequencies up. I have always found the upper mids to be those frequencies that tend to get eaten up by the rest of the band on stage and by the crowd out in the room. By bringing those frequencies forward, the ML's allow your playing to have increased definition in the mix. If it's too much, it's just a matter of either dialing them back with EQ, or by my favorite method which is rolling back your tone control just a tad.

Interesting thing is that the few times we tried dialing back the upper mids with some crossover mods, players that took the cab out on a gig said they missed them and wanted them back!

I like the Ashdown stuff quite a bit. I played a ABM500 for a numbers of years and was really happy with the tone. They sound quite nice with the ML cabs.

[quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1362734687' post='2003895'] I'm using an Ashdown Spyder 550 head with the cabs. Still very much experimenting with the cabs. At home, with the cabs stacked vertically there's a much bigger bottom end, compared to one cab up on a chair at rehearsal (exactly as you would expect). Our rehearsal space is a bit awkward to get to though, so I will only be bringing one cab, which is fine, I just know that I will be pushing it a bit harder and boosting the bass a bit more. Your comment about " it is very easy to hear slight changes in your EQ and technique with them" is spot on. On no other cab I have used does one hear so accurately changes on the amp's EQ. [/quote] Stacking them horizontal gives you an even bigger low end. I find the extra low end is really nice for larger outdoor gigs.

Hamfist, glad to hear you are enjoying the cabs. What amp are you using with the ML's? I ask because many of todays amps have a sizable treble boost built into the "knobs at noon" setting, so it's normal to find the ML112 a bit bright in this area with some heads. The key here, like Bill mentioned, is to not worry about where your knobs are set and just turn them to where you like the sound and call it good. You will also find that with the ML112's, if you stack the pair horizontally, the low end is going to feel much bigger which will balance out the mid response. Even if the gig doesn't need you to be cranked, the two cabs together present a different feel, which I prefer due to the bigger low end. Stacking the cabs vertical will sound leaner and be more mid present. The good thing is that you can tailor the configuration quite a bit to match the gig. one, or two, horizontal or vertical. Regarding the L-pad, one of the early prototypes had an L-pad, but pretty much everyone that tried the cab said they left it up full. If it's really not needed, then there is really no need to add extra components to the circuit path. The ML112 was developed because I was trying to recreate the sound of our amp that I was hearing though a good mixer into very high end headphones. With that setup, it was easy to hear all the smallest nuances of the tube circuit, with all the added tube overtones and harmonics. Plugging the amp into the standard cabs that were available never would yield the same results. It just sounded like a whole lot of information was missing somehow. Once we got into the mid drivers and increased upper mid output, I felt the cab was able to recreate the sound I was hearing from the tube circuit in a live setting much better. Those extra mids may sound a bit too forward in your living room, but they really add a lot of definition and articulation to your playing onstage and it is very easy to hear slight changes in your EQ and technique with them.

The ML115 has bigger lows and smooth upper mids. I think Bass Direct was interested in these for the shop, once they are available.

[quote name='Iana' timestamp='1362055164' post='1995026'] I am just really picky as I am sure Mark Stickley will tell you! I prefer the bigger low mids and polite upper mid voicing of the HD212, I had owned one before and was always totally happy with tone, but struggled with the weight. The idea with the ML was to store one cab where I normally play and not have to carry much gear around, sadly this did not work out due to security isssues so I went back to a single cab solution. The Baer is a quality piece of gear, as Mark said to me, this is kind of like choosing between two very high end sports cars, it is difficult to go wrong! [/quote] I consider it a very nice compliment to be considered in the same company as Jim's cabs and we appreciate you giving the cabs a try.

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361888030' post='1992467'] ...So why don't you argue the facts instead of attacking me personally? [/quote] Because I don't think players visit these threads to see people argue and you've obviously had a chip on your shoulder from post one, for some reason. If you have issues with our gear, then you're free to not purchase it, but I don't understand your need to troll on a thread regarding gear you obviously have no interest in. Owners of the ML112 really like the frequency response of the cab and its peaks in the upper mids are there by design. I've had local pro's test the cab with different crossovers that had the 1.5K peak either substantially reduced, or removed altogether and in every case, the players came back reporting that they like the sound of the original crossover better. Maybe I should ignore their opinions because the new crossover looks better on paper? The cabs that were tested by Bass Gear Magazine are Tom's personal cabs. Alan Loshbaugh, who wrote the review, purchased a pair of ML112's shortly after doing the review. Would guys who know gear like they do purchase the cabs if they sounded bad? Regardless of the opinion you have based on the Bass Gear graphs, I stand behind the design. I don't see that I've ever made some outlandish claims that needs to be debated and anyone buying our cabs has the option to return them if they are not 100% happy with them. Simple as that.

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361714926' post='1989615'] [size=4][i][color=#0000CD]I didn't level criticism at you personally. The cabinet measured poorly in the Bass Gear test. The measurements look fair to me but perhaps you’d like to clarify the matter by posting the set of measurements Bill did for you. What measurements did he do exactly? I am pleased that you are more than happy to answer questions about your product.[/color][/i] Like I said, we don't post frequency response curves as part of our marketing and I've stated my reasons for not doing so. I sent the cab to Bill to measure so that I knew the specs we do list on the website were correct and so that we wouldn't be called out later, by him or anyone else. Bill and I have worked together before, but I also know that won't stop him from calling me out online if he thinks I am making claims that the gear won't support. Bill tested the cab and confirmed that -3db and -10db frequency specs we claim were valid. If Bill would like to chime in with how the test were conducted, I will gladly allow that, as it is really out of my area of expertise and I don't want to give out the wrong information. Looking at the Bass Gear test of the cab, one would assume the cab to be very lacking in low end response, which would be very opposite from the opinions of players that actually use our cabs, a few of which have posted here. So here we clearly have a case where some test don't correlate well with the experience of those using the gear, so which information is more useful to people interested in the cabs? The response chart on Bass Gear article, or the experience of those players actually using the cab on gigs in all kinds on environments, including those of the person doing the reveiw? Oh, and by the way, Bill frequently gives me a hard time online for not posting more information, but I accept that as an area we disagree. He lets it go for the most part, because he feels we are not out there making false claims about our gear. [color=#000080][i]We’re clear then. You consider Basschat to be a marketing channel comparable to a stand at Naam and I consider it to be more like a pub where like-minded musicians can meet to chat, exchange experiences, offer and receive advice. Did I say you shouldn’t wear your logo here? Don’t make a meal of it, Roger.[/i][/color] You didn't say I shouldn't wear my logo here, but you clearly seem to have issue with it and feel that BassChat should charge us for doing so. I was just explaining my reasoning for doing so. Online social media is being used by just about every company in the world there days, so it would be silly of me to not take advantage of it. Isn't the direct interaction between the players and the manufacturers of bass gear one of the more positive benefits a site like this has to offer? I do try and keep shameless self promotion to a minimum. [color=#000080][i]You disagree with what? That measurements are useful? Don’t you measure your amps?[/i][/color] I didn't say that I felt measurements are not useful. I was disagreeing with your statement alluding to the fact that subjective opinions from those players without technical expertise are not useful. "[color=#0000CD][i]N[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]othing against subjective opinions when they are unbiased and from someone who knows what they're talking about..." [/font][/i][/color]Personally, I don't see why the the opinion of any bassist with personal experience with a piece of gear, should be deemed less relevant than the opinion of another. [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I'm not trying to pick a fight with you here, Stevie. If you have issues with the way we do business, then that's your right. I think I have explained myself and my positions clearly enough, so maybe we can move past that and not turn this thread into an online bickering match between the two of us. [/font][/color][/size] [i][/quote][/i]

Agreed. One cab may do it for you, depending on how loud your band is. Think of it as comparable to a good 210 box. Personally, I would rather use two cabs running comfortably, with some headroom left, than run one cab balls out and hope things don't get louder as the night goes on. I recently had a player use the ML115 on a gig that he usually needs his 310 box for and he said that it handled the gig just fine, with just as much, if not more low end. It all depends on what your definition of "not particularly loud" is.

Appreciate the support guys. Stevie seems like a good guy and makes some valid points, but while I don't want to turn this into a thread debating the merit of posting information like frequency response curves, polar plats, or waterfall charts, I will say this. We don't post detailed specifications on our speaker cabs simply because I don't feel that the information is all that useful in the context of the way we bassist buy our gear. It's my opinion that most bassist don't have the engineering knowledge to interpret all that technical data and then get an accurate picture in their head of how that gear will sound with their instrument. That's certainly not implying that I think bassist are too stupid to understand that information. I just don't don't think that many players care what a cab looks like on paper and most bassist would rather concentrate on the music rather than learning audio engineering. I can honestly say that in three years of doing the NAMM show, not one player has ever asked me for the technical data on our cabs. The vast majority of the players there never even ask any questions at all about the gear. They just simply plug and start playing. They either like what they hear, or they don't. I think that's the best approach of all. If I made PA gear and was claiming that our system has ruler flat response for 10Hz to 50K, then yes, I think it's my responsibility to show proper documentation backing up those claims. But, I make bass amps that, just like our guitar counterparts, are full of all kinds of voicing and character quirks. I believe the only way for you to tell if those quirks will work for you, is by either trying it out for yourself, or by looking on the internet at the opinions and experiences that others have had using the gear. Regardless of what test has been done, or how someone interprets the results, I stand behind our designs 100% and make no excuses for their performance. If someone really has an issue with our gear, or our policies, then they have every right to not purchase from our company.

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361559898' post='1987682'] Well I'm glad about that. You're wrong about the "well considered and explanatory" thing because he completely sidestepped my point about the poor measurements of the cab in Bass Gear Magazine by repeating what Bill had said and claiming that measurements are not meaningful unless everyone uses the same methods. But I can forgive you for that So, while a vendor is allowed a certain leeway to promote his products on this site (unlike many others, I would add), these vendors should in return play the game and respond to reasonable criticism when it's levelled at them. [/quote] Ok, I must have misunderstood the criticism that was leveled at me, so if you will explain what you meant, I am more than happy to answer any questions you have about our products. I don't know if you are saying the cabinet measured poorly, or if the measurements themselves were poor. I certainly don't consider it sidestepping to say that test results only have meaning when one understands the method and manner in which the testing was conducted. [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361564839' post='1987796'] Yes, the advertising thing does bug me a bit, especially when it gets excessive. If I'm having a pint in a pub, the last think I want is somebody trying to sell me insurance or flashing their corporate logo at me. But I never used the word 'wrong'. I do think it would be a good idea for Basschat to charge companies for displaying their business logo. That way at least Basschat would benefit. [/quote] Instead of the pint in a pub analogy, think of it this way. You walk into a booth at NAMM to check out some gear and the guy there walks up to you with their corporate logo on their shirt. Do you find that shameless promotion or acceptable behavior? My logo and signature identifies me as the owner of a company that makes bass gear. As I'm on a forum that is all about bass gear, I see no harm in having my logo as my avatar. Others like myself display our company logos on the site because BassChat allows us to do so. It provides users of these forums a chance to interact directly with the people that make the gear they own, or are interested in and I can't see how that would not be a benefit to everyone involved. Of course it allows for a bit of self promotion and benefits us manufacturers, but it also benefits users of the forum. I think BassChat recognizes that it benefits the bass community as a whole and draws players to their site, so it's a win for both sides, as long as everyone plays by the rules. [quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361544212' post='1987289'] Nothing against subjective opinions when they are unbiased and from someone who knows what they're talking about, but measurements can explain much of what you are hearing that you can't necessarily put your finger on. They can also highlight problems, if you know how to interpret them. As you say, the big picture. [/quote] I disagree. A user posting a review doesn't have to be an audio engineer to be able to relate his or her direct experience with a product and have it be relevant. When shopping for gear, I like to read about players personal experience with gear I am considering, whether they are working pros, or casual weekend warriors. And I don't mind that opinions are biased. If I'm considering a new bass, a Sadowsky, for example, the fact that the players using these instruments are so excited and passionate about them tells me something useful about the product.

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361396538' post='1985460'] Just out of interest, was it the ML112 you measured, Bill? And did it measure the same as the one Tom Bowlus tested in Bass Gear? (I certainly hope not.) [/quote] The cab BGM measured was not the same as the one Bill tested, but it had essentially the same specs. The problem with published graphs is that you need the technical knowledge to interpret the charts based on the testing methods used, and as Bill has pointed out, not everyone is testing by the same methods. In other words, frequency response curves are only meaningful when everyone is testing using the same methods, so you have some reference to go by. Bill's test of the cab showed a more extended low end response as well as less output in the top end. That said, the cabs tested were Tom's personal cabs, so he likes them enough to own a pair. Shortly after writing the review on the cabs, Alan (Chef onTalkBass) purchased a pair for his own use. The cabs were designed to have a lot of focus and articulation in a live setting. They don't have a typical bass cab response, because these cabs were not designed to sound like a typical bass cabinet. They have their own character going on, but do respond to changes in EQ and technique very well. You really have to hear one in person to tell if that is right for you, or not. Bass Direct usually tries to keep some in stock, so it is possible to try them out in person.

[quote name='garythebass' timestamp='1355320740' post='1896884'] ...I think it's a bit unfair to accuse Bill, Alex or Mr Baer of trying to push their products, since none of them, to my knowledge, is offering a break-in service or selling sine-waves/test equipment. They are merely giving their opinion on what they believe will benefit us if we invest in new gear. If break-in is just 'snake oil', no-one is hurt and no-one loses out...[/quote] Thank you for your understanding. I don't quite understand those who are saying we are pushing this, or that, or that this is all just marketing hype by a manufacturer to sell cabinets. I see no marketing benefit to telling our customers our cabs go through a break-in period. As we don't sell anything to accomplish this, there is certainly no money to be made from doing so. In fact, we don't recommend doing anything other than simply playing your cabinet to break it in. The OP asked for opinions, so I gave him mine based on my experience with the drivers we use in our cabs. If I didn't absolutely believe that the cabinet's tone changes after break-in, then what could I possibly have to gain by telling my customers they do? At this point, this thread just reminds me of the Monty Python argument sketch. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y[/url]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1355260793' post='1896178'] That's the second time you've posted that link from the Eminence customer services tech. On this particular matter he says, "Subtle changes will continue throughout the life cycle of the speaker". Which is fair enough and doesn't contradict what I said. There are plenty of speakers from the 1970s still working fine today. There have been some unstable materials like undoped paper, foam and PVC surrounds, but by and large, I think you can expect a modern speaker to perform to specification for several decades. I'm sure that's the case with Baer speakers, isn't it? Interesting that he strongly recommends [i]against [/i]using a test tone to break your speakers in. So who is one to believe if the so-called experts disagree? [/quote] Tony is not a customer service tech. He is one of the head engineers at Eminence and one of the guys actually designing their drivers. Yes, the drivers should last for many, many years. What Tony is saying in that article is that the driver is constantly changing due to changes in the driver materials from years of playing. Sure, most of these long term changes are beyond anyone's ability to notice over time, but the changes in the driver after the first few hours are the most noticeable. Honestly, I'm not trying to pick a fight here. The OP asked about driver break-in and I'm answering based on my own my own experience with our own drivers. I'm not an engineer myself, but I've been playing bass for over 30 years and consider myself to have a pretty good set of ears. I can say that without a doubt, the sound of our cabs changes after a few hours of playing. It's clearly audible. I have absolutely nothing to gain by telling my customers that the cabs go through a break-in period, if that wasn't actually the case. Very simply, the surround and spider materials are very stiff when they are first made. After a few hours that cloth will become more flexible and most players will notice a slight increase in the low end volume below about 100Hz compared to the cab fresh out of the box.

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1355245441' post='1895886'] Hi Phil, Modern drivers are designed with materials that tend to be fairly stable. I don't think the parameters change very much over time, at least not on a good quality driver.[/quote] This seems to go against the information put out there by one of the largest speaker manufacturers in the world, most cabinet manufacturers and my own personal experience, but I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions. [url="http://www.eminence.com/2011/06/speaker-break-in/"]http://www.eminence.com/2011/06/speaker-break-in/[/url]

I'm going to chime in here an say that without a doubt, the woofers in our cabs go through a definite break-in period. The low end will sound a little bigger and louder and more balanced with the mid driver after a few hours of playing. Almost everyone who uses our cabs will agree. We've even had a couple customers that bought cabs some time apart call to let me know there must be something wrong with the new cab, because it doesn't sound like the old cabinet. "I'm playing them side by side and the new cab sounds much brighter than the old cab. Did you change something?". And it's not coincidence that users say the cabinets always sound better when they are broken-in. They were designed with broken-in drivers in the first place, so it goes to reason that a cab right out of the box doesn't sound as it was originally designed to sound. There's a very good reason why our engineers at Eminence don't test a driver until they have put it through their own break-in period. Here's some good information from the Eminence site, written by one of their head engineers, not the marketing guys! [url="http://www.eminence.com/2011/06/speaker-break-in/"]http://www.eminence....eaker-break-in/[/url]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1267947325' post='766632'] [url="http://www.baeramps.com"]Dunno if they'll be available in the UK, but they look interesting...[/url] [/quote] Bass Direct now has a few ML112's in stock.

[quote name='Spoombung' timestamp='1341246984' post='1715711'] I'm quite surprised there's nothing available. I would have thought its a good idea because you could match it with a dull, bassy 12" and get a hifi sound and it would be easy to carry too. [/quote] A good design has drivers that are well matched, as well as a crossover specifically designed to work with both drivers. Simply adding a mid driver to another cab will result in mixed results at best. Also because the mid driver in a two way design is coming off the crossover, you are not asking it to reproduce any frequencies below the crossover point. Simply adding a 6" mid cabinet to your 12" speaker cabinet without a crossover means that the midrange cab is going to see a a full range signal, which is going to seriously lower it's power handling capability of that driver.

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1340691119' post='1708060'] IMO, you get the balance right. So, when do we get to see this product around here..? [/quote] Quick dealer update. It looks like Bass Direct is going to have a couple of ML112's in stock in the near future. Anyone interested should contact Mark and ask about reserving a cab.