Joe Hubbard Bass

[quote name='endorka' post='1073717' date='Dec 31 2010, 02:40 PM']I agree Joe, having thought about this it is more a matter of different perspectives than anything else. I agree that such a rule has no place in a harmony textbook, for example, but as a guideline for someone playing basslines in a soul band or motown band, for example, it may find applicability. Perhaps I should explain more where I am coming from in this. I love speaking to other musicians and finding out the rules and heuristics they have developed; these are not always totally correct or complete in a "book learning" sense, or even outwith that player's speciality, but often offer insights that have value. Another recent one was from a bass player that plucks near the bridge when in the lower bass register, but plucks over the neck when playing in the upper octave of the instrument. This suprised me as it runs counter to the thinking one uses for bow placement on a double bass, but it certainly achieves a characteristic sound. Having reviewed a couple of my recent recordings, I've found the odd major 3rd scattered around. One doesn't sound cheesy at all, in fact it is rather dark. The chord sequence is D, D/C#, Bm, G A. The usual bassline is D, C#, B, G A, but as a variation before going into a different section I play D, F#, B, G, A. That F# really makes a huge difference and a considerable musical statement. Does the F# being the 3rd of an inversion of D major 7th make a difference, you think? Also, I note that there is a strong resolution in the bassline in this case going from the F# to the B of B minor. Jennifer[/quote] I would view the D/C# as C#sus(b9,b13); that specifically would be a D triad with the C# in the bass. This is different to Dmaj7th chord in 3rd inversion. If the F# is used in the bass over the Dmaj, it is often interpreted as F#-7; often guitarists and keyboard players will use 9 instead of 1 in their voicings. Either version would sound good to my ears in that progression and lead nicely into Bm. Abe Laborial and Neal Stubenhaus used these simple re-harmonization techniques on thousands of record dates including many other inspirational bass players. Best Joe

[quote name='endorka' post='1073639' date='Dec 31 2010, 12:39 PM']I am certain I have other teaching material where she said to avoid the major third in basslines, unless playing reggae. I don't have time at the moment to look for this - it may be in a video, for example - but when I come across the reference I'll post it, even if I am wrong :-) I agree that it is not universally applicable. But to say that it is nonsense and incorrect - period - i.e. all the time, is also flawed. In my studies of basslines I have noticed that many do emphasise use of the major 6th rather than the major 3rd, particularly those around Carol Kaye's time. In my opinion, basslines constructly thusly tend to sound more "soulful", for want of a better word. For example, I've found it very frequently used in chord progressions going from the tonic major (e.g. C major) to ii minor (e.g D minor), where the 5th and 6th of the major chord become the 4th and fifth of the minor chord. Sure, it is not the only way to negotiate this progression, but it does seem to be used a lot. So, it is a useful rule of thumb for creating rock/pop/soul basslines. Again, I feel incorrect is too strong a word. I'm happy to concede that it is only appropriate to certain genres of music, and not to others. Your mention of chord progression re-harmonization could arguably be said to fall into similar terriory; great in some contexts, but in my experience it has limited acceptance in most pop music. Jennifer[/quote] This is really a matter of taste on your part, so there really isn't any need to run around in circles here. [b]It is a fact harmonically that the third works over a major chord in any context.[/b] As I have said before, thousands of bass lines, melodies and solos prove this. You could say a little golden nugget is to always play the root and fifth over any chord. There are plenty of players who do this; you could also argue that they are "soulful" because of it. But really this is a limiting belief that really needs correcting when teaching others. Best Joe

[quote name='endorka' post='1073612' date='Dec 31 2010, 12:01 PM']Not really Joe - my recollection is that she does say elsewhere to avoid using the major 3rd as a component of basslines, and a refinement of her statement is that it is ok as a passing note in the context of chromatic runs. I don't have a huge vested interest in defending her in this; it is just what she said, and it would appear that someone else, for better or worse, has also been privy to her statment on this, independently of me. It is unlikely we would both have imagined it! I think you are reading a little too much into this to be honest, it was not intended as a hard and steadfast rule that will always work no matter what, rather as a "nugget as wisdom". As I mentioned before, what impressed me is that a statement so concise can be correct so often. Jennifer[/quote] The quote that you posted of Carol Kaye’s does not subscribe to avoiding the 3rd. Only Carol Kaye would be able to clarify what she actually meant; you see- that’s the trouble with passing on second hand information. As for the notion that the 3rd can or should only be used as a passing tone or part of a chromatic line is nonsense and incorrect harmonically- period. I reiterate the thousands of musical references that refute this not to mention using the third to re-harmonize a chord progression. You say that a statement so concise can be correct so often? The problem with this “little nugget of wisdom” is that it is clearly incorrect. Best Joe

[quote name='Sean' post='1073347' date='Dec 31 2010, 12:48 AM']Keith indeed. Keith, Mick Taylor, Ronnie Wood, Willie Weeks, Steve Jordan and a few others have laid down the low end for the Stones all on Bill's watch too! Total derail of this thread and I apologise but for an interesting Stones bass line check out the weirdly dark funk overtones of Fingerprint File from It's Only Rock and Roll with Mick T on bass. Unusually for the Stones the bass is high in the mix and is the main hook throughout the song.[/quote] Good call! ...and you can add Charlie Drayton to that list. Best Joe

[quote name='Sean' post='1073153' date='Dec 30 2010, 09:00 PM']This has bothered me for years and though I have pretty much tried to ignore what she said, on occasion she couldn't be more right . The same day I watched the video I had worked out Keith Richards' bassline to Sympathy for the Devil, and remember thinking that Carol was plainly not 100% correct in what she was saying as Symapthy has that wonderful Root-P4-M3-R played over the E and D chords of the some of the verse and it in no way sounds "hokey".[/quote] This is the sign of a bad teacher and by you listening to that advice and thinking that she must be right, when you compare it with thousands of bass lines throughout history that do indeed display usage of a major 3rd over a major chord, it increases your confusion levels exponentially. [quote]As an aside, if anyone else has seen those Carol Kaye "home videos' and wondered why one of the most recorded instrumentalists of all time failed to make a half decent job of producing tuition videos, you are not alone. I know what CK would say though: it's the content that counts etc.[/quote] It's no secret that much of what she claimed to have recorded was actually played by James Jamerson. This is not meant to denigrate what she did play on; in her day she was a good player, but being a good player doesn't automatically transpose into being a good teacher. Best Joe

[quote name='endorka' post='1072959' date='Dec 30 2010, 06:08 PM']I've just checked some of her teaching material. While I cannot find the explicit reference to the major 3rd, there is this: "For Rock and some Pop styles of playing, the most commonly used contemporary bass notes you use for these different chords are... MAJOR - Root, 5th and 6th (also: 3rd, 4th, #4th to 5th as a run, also the 9th)... The above are basically the primary notes to use for creating patterns in all styles of music except jazz." While she does not totally proscribe the use of the 3rd in the above statement, it would seem that she views it as only applicable in the context of a run or fill, much as you describe above. - in the accompanying examples there are indeed very few major 3rds. There are some specific examples of major 10ths, but it is my impression that she views these differently as being used as part of a more "melodic" type of statement than the major 3rd. I'll keep on looking for the major 3rd reference in her work - I am sure it is there, another poster in this thread has also come across it independently :-) Whatever the case, it is a rule I have found useful. I do use the major 3rds in walking lines, but in other music I found that they have a propensity to sound corny. That's just my experience, of course. Jennifer[/quote] Okay, but from this quote she does not say to avoid the 3rd. If her (or your) interpretation of the use of a major third over a Major chord is corny or hokey, then that comes down to a personal taste issue which is an entirely different argument, but to turn it into a rule is foolhardy to say the least. If this advice is purely related to style analysis of a given player then so be it, but everyone needs to understand that a major 3rd against a major chord works melodically regardless of the musical context. Furthermore, there are thousands of references to this on recorded music. Best Joe

[quote name='chris_b' post='1072683' date='Dec 30 2010, 01:20 PM']Advice from a double bass player on playing walking bass lines; "Never hit the same note twice in a row". It works![/quote] This is bad advice! The use of repeated notes is a powerful device for creating all sorts of dynamic tension in your lines. It has been used throughout time by everyone from Paul Chambers to Miles Davis; from Anthony Jackson to John Coltrane. As a bass player giving that advice, he should be shot as a bass player's toolbox should include is what is called "pedal points." Best Joe

[quote name='endorka' post='1072489' date='Dec 30 2010, 09:49 AM']I'm sure it was the third she mentioned. Two possibilities spring to mind though; 1) In my studies of general orchestration I have come across another rule that mentions substituting the major 6th for the major 7th when harmonising. This is particularly applicable when the melody note is the tonic, i.e. it would give a semitone clash with the major 7th. I have sucessfully applied this rule to basslines & cello parts as well. 2) I think she has also mentioned that the major 6th can be used with a dominant chord, even if the minor 7th is present elsewhere. Jennifer[/quote] Thirds (and 10ths) are used prolifically over major chord types in all forms of music with great success. In a pop/funk context it is common place for people to subtract the major 7th and replace it with the major 6th. I can't imagine Carol Kaye advising not to use the major third over a major chord type. It is just kindergarden theory. Not to mention all the bass lines that she claimed to have played are loaded with root, third, double chromatic to the fifth. Of course the 6th over a Dominant 7th chord is really a chord tension that is commonly reffered to as tension 13. Best Joe

[quote name='endorka' post='1072232' date='Dec 29 2010, 10:37 PM']When playing over a major chord, don't use the major 3rd in the bassline - substitute the major 6th instead. Unless you are playing reggae, in which case the major 3rd is ok. From Carol Kaye - and I've found it to be true almost 100% of the time. Jennifer[/quote] Are you sure she didn't say use the "6th" instead of the "7th"? Best Joe

[quote name='urb' post='1039274' date='Nov 27 2010, 08:37 PM']Go look up Louis Vega as well - a monster groove player who uses it effortlessly and with great taste.[/quote] Are you sure you don't mean Bobby Vega? [url="http://www.bobbyvega.com/"]http://www.bobbyvega.com/[/url] Peace Joe

It's a nice clip and well presented. I agree that the name "modes of rhythm" is a new-fangled way of just saying "rhythmic displacement." But, that's not such a bad idea as a teaching implement because when somebody is presenting an idea many students will sub-vocalise that they already"know that." When he uses the "modes of rhythm" tag, people suddenly wake up and say, "Oh, what's that?" Now, he has their attention and is able to successfully impart that knowledge to them. Peace Joe

Hi Steven Glad to hear you are getting on well with the exercises. I've just put up a "Free Bass Guitar Transcription Download" at: [url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/cool-free-bass-stuff/"]http://www.joehubbardbass.com/cool-free-bass-stuff/[/url] The latest one is an excerpt track by The Screaming Headless Torsos that has a groove that goes between 5/4 and 9/4. Hope you like it. Peace Joe

The cycle of fifths is definitely the way to go when visulising these key signatures. As already pointed out, clockwise takes you up in 5ths and anti-clockwise takes you in 4ths. An important adendum to this is that although there are only 12 notes within this cycle, there are actually 15 written key signatures. The keys: C# & Db, F# & Gb, B & Cb are called enharmonics (same notes spelled different ways) So to recap there are 15 keys: one natural key, seven sharp keys and seven flat keys. These types of musical mechanics just have to be learned in the same way a driver learns what the signs on the road mean- just take the time to learn them. Speed comes with practice, but always remember that speed is just a reflex of what you really know at a slow tempo. Jeff Berlin says not to use a metronome while learning new things. I have to agree with him here; first slowly take in and process new information; then when you know what it is that you are playing, begin to build tempos, work on phrasing, grooves, etc. Hope that helps Joe

I just received an email from someone asking me if you can use a b9 on the Dom7sus4 chord. The answer is yes. All available tensions on a Dom7sus4 are: - 9,13 & 17 (same as 3rd) - b9, b13 & b17 I usually don't give too many possibilities in one sitting because many people become too overwhelmed. Also, it good to establish the inside options first, so there is some referencing when playing more outside and then finding your resolution points of reference. Peace Joe

Hi Hector D-7/G = G9sus4. The chord tones are G, C, D, F. Chord tensions are 9 & 13 (A & E). You can also get the same sound by just playing the D-7 over the G root; this is a tactic called "Superimposition." The chord scale for the G9sus4 would be G Mixolydian. However, instead of limiting yourself to learning a scale over a chord, start to ivestigate different "delivery systems" to create your different musical ideas. A "scalar approach" is only one of many "delivery systems" available to you. Theory books are flooded with "play this scale over this chord", but still to this day, most people do not really understand what to do with these scales and become very frustrated in the process. First before you do anything else get familiar with the Minor 7th and Dom7sus4 arppegios. Play them "vertically" across your bass in five positions. This will assure you that you will have at least three variable fingerings for these chords. Then learn them on one string up & down and oh, yes, in all keys. It is only then when you will be able to start to add the different "delivery systems" that make up the Matrix. When you begin to start getting this together, let me know and I'll throw you another bone. Hope this starts to get you thinking about possibilities. Peace Joe

Okay, good job Steven. Let's start to add the bass. The first drill is goin to be playing ascending diatonic thirds, but the rhythm is going to be played in triplets. Because you are playing 2-note groupings (diatonic thirds) in triplets, in creates a cross rhythmic feel. Any scale will do, but it's probably good for most to start with major. Make sure to play this both up and back down the fretboard, but make sure to keep the thirds ascending in both directions. You must also - this is imperative - count out loud (count: 1, 2, 3, 4) while you are playing this, but do not tap you foot. First practice throroughly WITHOUT a metronome to develop the coordination needed. Add the metronome and build tempo gradually. Remember- the counting while playing is important as these are "isolation drills" whose only purpose is developing creative rhythmic feel. This is an attribute developing drill, NOT a drill in playing diatonic thirds! [u]Further Instructions:[/u] This drill should be played in all 5-positions on the fretboard and for the purpose of fretboard awareness, it should be done in all keys. Good luck and hope this starts to help you to develop a strong rhythmic feel. Peace Joe

This is really an involved topic where there are several layers to take note. For starters, the bottom-line is having an understanding of harmony and composition form. Always remember to chunk things down and then string those ideas together. Something that on the surface seems complicated is nothing but a few simple things strung together. Make sure that part of your practice is spent learning tunes. Learn the chord changes, learn the bass lines, learn the melody and acquire the skill of playing these in different keys and vary the positions you play them in. When reading a note-for-note line, get used to re-writing the part on the fly while adding your own personal stamp to it. This is a subtle skill, but make no mistake about it- very few people want you to stick to an exact written part; it does happen but it is rare. The best players get hired to contribute their vibe to the part without losing the original essence while at the same time not attracting undue attention to yourself. Peace Joe

[quote name='Annoying Twit' post='947122' date='Sep 6 2010, 12:44 PM']When trying to play fills etc, I can up the speed by using hammer-ons OK, but have trouble with pull-offs. I loose control over the volume, and my timing goes to pot as I'm concentrating too much on the pull-off. Are there some simple exercises anyone would recommend to help?[/quote] The root of this problem could be that you are not keeping the fingers behind the fretted note down on the fretboard. For example, if I am playing in a "one finger per fret position" from the first fret of the E-string, when you play F (1st fret) to G (3rd fret), your second finger wants to come down onto the fretboard behind the third finger( first finger stays down as well). When you play that in reverse, you would fret th G with your third finger while the first and second fingers are down on the fretboard. Strive for evennness in dynamics between your right hand and left hand attacks. Start slow and work for consistancy. Peace Joe

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' post='951355' date='Sep 10 2010, 12:39 AM']Yeah, counting at each hit. Or should i be counting once per 4 hits?[/quote] No, you should be counting once for every four note grouping. With the triplets, you should be counting once for every three note grouping, but you are tapping the same pattern. Hang in there! Peace Joe

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' post='950537' date='Sep 9 2010, 12:59 PM']So where do the counts go in relation to the taps? Sorry, my knowledge of timing is notoriously flaky.[/quote] Hi Gareth Are you able to tap and count the beats with the paradiddle pattern at 16th notes? Peace Joe

[quote name='Sub_Drop' post='949729' date='Sep 8 2010, 06:35 PM']Thanks for all the advice people, thanks for the drill Joe, never tried that stuff without a bass to be honest, but I can do that and other note patterns where it isn't even 16th notes and such to a beat with just my hands. so what is the next step to get my timing and odd time patterns better? Thanks in advice anyway Joe. By the way, the name's Ste, since my user name doesn't give that away.[/quote] Okay, once you are comfortable tapping the 16th note paradiddle patterns while counting the downbeats out loud (remember not to tap your foot), you are now ready for the next exercise. But before we introduce the bass into the matrix, you have to nail another tapping exercise. This time you will tap the same paradiddle pattern, except instead of playing them in 16th note you will play them in 8th note triplets. Notice how this creates a polyrhythmic feel. You should be able to go between the straight 16ths and triplets at will. All the same rules apply when counting- first start off with no metronome and then slowly introduce the metronome while gradually increasing the tempo. One note: these tapping drills are all about developing an understanding and interpretation of feel. Some people rush through these and don’t count out loud or are tapping their feet while playing through them. If this is the case, you are wasting your time. This is a “skill developing drill.” No one will ask you whether you can tap out paradiddles on a gig, but the results of understanding these rhythmic concepts will turbo charge your playing with the right progression, so hang with me. Peace Joe

[quote name='Sub_Drop' post='945744' date='Sep 4 2010, 10:43 PM']Can anyone recommend any helpful ways to improve on playing in odd time signatures and poly rhythms? I know this is a general question but I'm just looking to improve my sense of timing when things aren't played to a straight 4/4 3/4 beat.[/quote] Hi Sub To learn freedom with odd time signatures, you first have to learn 4/4 time. Many think they understand 4/4, but haven’t really developed the flexibility and freedom that they need to be solid. Here’s a simple drill (without your bass to start): - Tap out a simple 16th note drum paradiddle with your two hands (no metronome…yet) - Next, count 1, 2, 3, 4 out loud as you play the 16ths (don’t count the subdivisions and don’t tap your foot) - If you don’t know the paradiddle pattern it is: RLRR,LRLL,RLRR, LRLL (one bar of 4/4) - Just repeat until you get it down solid. - Next start to add the metronome (note: before adding the metronome, you have to have the pattern down along with the coordination of counting the downbeats). When you get that down, come back and post and I’ll explain how to take it to the bass and beyond. Peace Joe

[quote name='Bilbo' post='943450' date='Sep 2 2010, 02:51 PM']Joe's point is a valid one. In order to teach, you need to establish what it is the student wants to learn. If they are happy to thump away in a metal band, do you really need to discuss advanced harmonic concepts like quartal harmony?[/quote] I need to re-phrase what I said. The student seeks out lessons because he wants to learn to play. However, as a teacher, it is your responsibility to teach them the language of music (Jeff Berlin has a good maxim that paraphrased goes something like, "Mozart, Van Halen and Duke Ellington all use a G major chord; the language of music has no barriers stylistically). If I were to seek out Arabic lessons because I was working out in the Middle East, I would want to be able to have a "conversation" in Arabic with the locals. I wouldn't, however, have a clue to what the individual components would be that are needed to learn how to interact with someone speaking Arabic. That is what I am paying a teacher for- his expertise. My advice is to do your homework when seeking out a teacher. These days any Jake Leg can stick up an add and claim they know what they are talking about. And...instead of that acoustic 6-string, learn something about the piano. As an old teacher of mine once said, "All piano players are closer to God." When I asked what he meant about that, he said that piano players have the whole orchestra at their finger tips. Peace Joe

I have survived over three decades as a bass teacher and the problems discussed here are nothing new to say the least. You guys out there as teachers? I hate to break it to you, but part of your job is inspiring your students to be the best they can be. Notice the choice of words I use- “be the best THEY can be.” Many teachers suffer from advising their students to develop the fundamentals without actually relating it to what they wanted to know how to do: PLAYING! Many teachers also think they know the fundamentals, but in reality many don't. To those who don’t believe they need to learn anything new, please remember- music is a language, an expressive language, but universal nevertheless. You have to be able to play what you hear and hear what you play. Hands down, whether you like it or not, this takes skill and a desire to get good. It doesn't matter whether you have all the determination and dedication in the world, without the "desire" your are doomed for failure. Peace Joe

[quote name='endorka' post='938999' date='Aug 28 2010, 07:50 PM']Do you think there is utility in performing "quick" transcriptions, or even just playing along with a track and seeing how much you can work out without stopping the track? Sometimes I have to do this due to time constraints, and I find it beneficial, although to some extent it does seem to emphasise different part of the ear/brain/hand connection than the more detailed process you describe.[/quote] I guess anything is better than just sitting on the sofa. At some point you may have to quickly transcribe some tunes for a gig because of a deadline, but aimlessly jamming along with records with no end goal in mind will end up giving the player a false sense of security. Of course all of this a dependant on "who you are", "what you know" and "what you can do." Your overall development is timeless and has no deadline; if you worked on 5 transcribed pieces this year and did it thouroughly, it would supercede the benifit of rushing through 50 tunes half arsed. Just my opinion. Peace Joe